The Association of Union Constructors is 1,800+ contractors focused on building the power, industrial and other engineering-heavy buildings that help make our world. Todd Mustard and his team have worked to create a culture if innovation and knowledge sharing amongst TAUC members, culminating every year with their Industrial Grade Innovation show. Todd had some great ideas and observations about technology, and how its going to continue to impact how the world gets built.
Todd Mustard
[00:00:00] Hugh Seaton: Welcome to constructed futures. I'm Hugh Seaton today. I'm here with Todd mustard, vice president at TAUC, Todd, welcome to the podcast,
[00:00:10] Todd Mustard: Hugh. Thanks for having me appreciate it.
[00:00:13] Hugh Seaton: So I love TAUC. You guys had me at IGI not so long ago. and you were actually kind enough to be part of the data in construction series we did a while ago, which was really great. I want to start. Having said all that I want to start with. Talk to me about what, what TAUC is.
[00:00:32] Todd Mustard: Sure. Well, the association of union constructors, we are a national trade association based in Arlington Virginia. We have just over 1800 construction companies that are members. They range in size from, you know, billion dollar multinational, publicly traded companies to kind of small regional construction companies. We've always focused on the industrial sector of the construction industry, in part, because of our sister organization, which is called the national maintenance agreements, policy committee, Inc, or NMAPC for short, just cause you need another acronym in your life.
[00:01:15] Hugh Seaton: Exactly.
[00:01:16] Todd Mustard: So we do everything that a normal kind of trade association would do. We focus on four kind of main buckets, which are environmental health and safety, industrial relations, government affairs and innovation and technology. And I, handle both of those last two items.
[00:01:33] Hugh Seaton: Excellent. Well, let's talk a little bit about your role as, as a leader in innovation. How have you found that you engage with members and the industry at large?
[00:01:46] Todd Mustard: Well, so we realized, you know, a good 6, 7, 8 years ago that innovation technology was going to have, or was having a larger impact on the construction industry.
And we saw some of our more sophisticated contractors moving quite quickly into investing in new innovation and tech. And we realized that, you know, in order to, to win the future, you needed to be adept at taking advantage of leveraging technology to your benefit as a contractor. And so one of the things we did was we created another event, which you know, associations are good at doing, called industrial grade innovation. So we created IGI. We held our first one in Dearborn, Michigan in 2018. And we had 200, 300 people attend. We had, one thing that's kind of unique about TAUC is that we have relationships with 14 different international unions because our contractors are typically multi craft in nature.
They all hire union workers to work on their projects, and we have relationships with 14 different international unions. Through those relationships, we can tap into the instructors and the training people at those different international unions. And then also we, we wanted to help showcase what they were doing as it related to training, but also showcase what was happening in the industry as relates to innovation in tech so that they could potentially incorporate that into their own training, thus making their members more able to utilize technology that our contractors were already purchasing and employing, if that makes sense.
[00:03:32] Hugh Seaton: It does. That's great. So, so you were leveraging your position kind of at the nexus of some of these unions who probably also some of them know each other, as tends to be the case, but you're kind of leveraging your position in the middle of this network to be able to kind of push some innovation out or certainly knowledge of innovation and comfort level with innovation out to some of these other trades.
[00:03:55] Todd Mustard: Yeah, that's exactly correct. And then, the other, we call it the tripartite. So the one leg of the stool that's missing here is the owner client. And we also have really close and good relationships with large owner clients in the automotive sector, the utility sector, petrochemical, manufacturing.
And so we try to bring owner client reps to IGI and other TAUC events. And in this case with IGI, we were trying to showcase how our contractors were on the cutting edge, if not bleeding edge, and then also how the trades were, you know, adopting new technology in new and exciting ways. So kind of benefit, you know, ultimately you want the end user to realize why they're paying you all this money to do work on your facility.
[00:04:43] Hugh Seaton: And how much are you finding that the owner side of things is driving this versus appreciating this versus, you know what, just get it done on budget, and on time.
[00:04:54] Todd Mustard: You know, it really, it's kind of dramatically different depending on the industry. So. You know, if you're working for Amazon or apple or Microsoft, they obviously understand the benefits of technology and they want their contractors to utilize that technology when they're building their facilities, some of the older industries and in some industries where like, it's just harder to utilize tech. So like, imagine if you're in a steel mill with the blast furnace. It's harder to use tablets when it's very hot, it et cetera, and even, you know, so it really, I guess it depends on the industry, but I would say that we were seeing both the top down and bottom up.
So there are certain owners that are helping significantly push the usage of tech. And there are others that. Are probably a lot more concerned with, you know, how much it's going to cost them. So they're a little bit less willing to take on that additional costs or that pass through cost.
Even if in the long run it would actually benefit them.
[00:06:00] Hugh Seaton: Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah, it's funny how, how we assume that of course the owner would be pushing this, but it isn't always the case that they see value in it. But also, I mean, I think the fact that you're really looking at industrial and EPC, it's a different beast from, maybe commercial where sometimes people are building boxes that are annuities and there are a lot less interested in how well they function as assets other than they don't fall down and things don't leak.
[00:06:29] Todd Mustard: That's absolutely correct
[00:06:32] Hugh Seaton: So as you think about the kinds of innovation that people are talking about, we use that word. We use technology as a, as a catchall, but what sorts of things do you think you're seeing more and more discussion about.
[00:06:46] Todd Mustard: You know, in our last innovation and tech committee meeting we spent quite a bit of time on connectivity.
It's something we've been looking at for a while. In part, because of, in the industrial sector, you're usually working at facilities that are sort of out in the middle of nowhere or can be because they're in part it's part partly driven by the not in my backyard kind of thing.
You know, it's like, they want the power, but they don't want to actually see it being made. You know, they don't want to see the stacks. In those areas, you know, connectivity is, unfortunately it can be an issue or a problem. There's not always great coverage. And so you know, connectivity, which seems like such a basic thing.
But it drives a lot of, you know, the ability to utilize a lot of this cool and interesting new technology. Because if you don't have the cloud, you don't have the internet, it forces you to do things in different ways that are not always the most efficient. So that's one, but I mean, Honestly, one of the things we heard after this year's IGI is that they love, they love the software companies, but they really want to see more on the hardware side.
So, you know, we had a couple of spot the dogs from Boston dynamics at this new event and with Faro and Trimble attaching laser scanners to those. So I think, I think robotics where we are hearing and seeing a little bit more of that the laser scanning, the 3d imaging with you know, especially with some of these companies that are able to take advantage of sort of lower cost scanning options, the new iPhones, for example, have LIDAR scanning in them.
Right. So they can, they can utilize that in new and exciting ways. Uh, w so they don't have to rely on the multi thousand dollar laser scanner. So I think which plays into the data, you know, the data collection and analysis which I know you're going to be talking about in upcoming TAUC webinar, which we're excited to have.
So that is a big, I think what I, I think is going to happen is, you know, your, your standard construction company does not have a data scientist or a computer scientist on staff, right? So there's going to be a whole sub sector of the construction tech industry, focusing on the analysis of data and being able to proactively provide input to contractors to make them better, is going to be a huge opportunity.
We had one of the, one of the companies that met with our innovation tech company was Equipment S hare. And, you know, they're doing some interesting things as it relates to collecting data specific to equipment, and trying to offer a proactive. Opportunities for either cost savings or better usage, for XYZ piece of equipment.
And I think that's a, that's kind of an interesting example of sort of where we're, we're moving as an industry.
[00:09:47] Hugh Seaton: Yeah, I love that. I mean, it's often easier to deploy some software, but it is an industry that uses a lot of heavy metal and being able to use that metal better. There was a contractor talking to me about their own internal marketplace that they'd created, that it allows you to track where cranes are and some other heavy equipment.
In fact, I think it was more about backhoes and heavy lifters than it was about cranes. The point is you can see what's around you and you can book something. I think there was within 500 miles. You can book something and have it sent to you, you know, negotiating with the whoever's running that another site, you know what I mean?
Like they created their own ability to much more effectively leverage their own assets, which they owned, which is of course not always the case, but in their case, they did own a fleet. Really, really interesting use of both hardware and software to, you know, potentially dramatically affect their capital expense because they, you know, people would hang onto these things just in case, which is an expensive insurance policy. When, you know, if you've got something a couple of hundred miles away, you could send it overnight and use it and then send it back. So it was a really exciting way of thinking about hardware in a much more flexible way than, than is sometimes the case.
[00:11:01] Todd Mustard: I totally agree. I think another thing too, that, that sort of leads into this, and I think the current pandemic is sort of exacerbating this issue is with material pricing and these pretty significant fluctuations in costs associated with material and you know, how there are there's opportunities for technology companies to help contractors hedge in terms of those costs, because this goes back to, when you're estimating projects, you're basing them on that sort of, what is it? The fourth dimension, the time, right. And so when you haven't yet purchased set of material, you know, that obviously could have massive impacts on your, you know, at the end of the day, in terms of staying on budget, and whether or not a job can, you know, potentially significantly hurt your bottom line.
So I think that, I think there are one of our startups in the startup battle that we held at IGI was focusing on that which I thought was really interesting and which kind of leads me into, you know, one of the cooler things about our IGI event is this startup battle that we've been running for awhile.
And we've used that as a, as a way to also kind of connect with venture capital groups that that will then put us in contact with their portfolio of companies. And what I find to be interesting there is that, you know, startups can come and go pretty quickly, but at the same time, it gives you a unique opportunity to see sort of what's happening next.
And this is where I think for an association like TAUC and, and other national associations. We're not always the most nimble, you know, we, we have sort of bureaucracies that have been created over time with our different committees and how we establish policy. And I mean, in some ways it's good because you don't always want to get too far ahead of yourself.
But at the same time when you, it's pretty inspiring to see these startups, who can quickly adapt and are looking to... the fail fast idea, which is not really prevalent in construction. We're kind of a conservative group, as it relates to that, you know, failures kind of... is not necessarily something you're trying to do.
Whereas in the technology sector, you know, you want to fail 10 times before you hit that, you know, the, the perfect pitch kind of thing.
[00:13:27] Hugh Seaton: Well, I think, yeah, and that's one of the new muscles that you're seeing construction begin to really grow. Right. Is the idea that the things that are not physical, you can fail a lot because there's, there's, it's not that there's no cost, but no one's going to get hurt and you haven't spent millions of dollars you have to undo, but you're prototyping your way to success. And that's an interesting one. I'll say something else about IGI. That that was really cool for me to hear. So I spoke with one of the companies that didn't win and I was like, man, you know, does it make you regret that you would get involved in something if you're not the winner?
And the person was like, no way, just by being there, I got, you know, 10 meetings or whatever it was, you know what I mean? Like, so in addition to discovering and somebody gets the win and brag about it and so on, but it's also exposure to companies who were listening to the pitches and saying, well, you know, I don't know if I need the winner, but the thing that they do is it really scratches an itch, which I thought was a really cool way of thinking about it.
[00:14:21] Todd Mustard: I do too. I, you know, in, in some ways too, you know, TAUC, we are trying to create a community in a network. Right. And I think the broader you could extend that network. The bigger impact you could potentially have on the industry. And I think helping a, you know, a small startup that maybe doesn't have access to 1800 contractors, obviously, you know, putting them in touch with a handful of them is going to end up significantly impacting and helping their business.
And selfishly for TAUC, you know, we could potentially get a tech company to change a product or service to better meet the needs of the industrial sector.
[00:15:03] Hugh Seaton: That's great. You know, there's another thing that you and I talked about before, and that's this idea that there are some folks inside the industry, some associates and, stakeholders that are ahead of the curve and they've gone out and they pioneered and they've learned some of the lessons.
And some of what an association does really well is that is hard to do on LinkedIn. And it's hard to do elsewhere is you get to talk to people who've had real experiences with things. And as a result, you know, feel comfortable adopting with something faster than you otherwise might. If in the case of maybe it's a smaller contractor or just someone who is not as, you know, bent on being forward-thinking or innovative. Talk to me a little bit about that dynamic, how you see sharing amongst members and parts of the community as a way that that really moves the needle forward.
[00:15:54] Todd Mustard: Absolutely. And I'm actually going to start with maybe a what seems like a non-sequitur, but there is a very important to me at least of college football game happening this weekend on Saturday.
And I know you are in Austin, Texas. So you probably have been hearing about this, but the university of Oklahoma, which is my Alma mater is playing the Longhorns, the Texas Longhorns in the red river river rivalry. And it's a, this is known as. Uh, football Christmas in the mustard household. But I only bring that up because these are two kind of powerhouse football programs that are only better because of the competition.
It's sort of like the steel on steel kind of now, you know, metaphor. And so an example of that in construction, Is we have, you know, Barton Malow and Walbridge are two large GCs in the Detroit area. They both do a ton of work in the automotive sector. They both have representatives on my innovation tech committee and they are fierce competitors, in terms of going after work.
But when they step inside that room, you know, they, I'm sure they're not giving any trade secrets away, but at the same time, they're sharing things in a way that can, that makes both of them better. And I think that's one of the more rewarding things for an association staff person in general is to see when, and I think innovation and tech in environmental health and safety are two areas where the contractors, when they get in these rooms, they're pretty open and honest with each other about what's happening. Cause everybody wants to be better in those two areas, industrial relations you know, that's an area where you might have a secret sauce or something that you're not necessarily going to share everything with your competitor.
I think it's exciting to see the contractors walking out of those rooms, those committee meetings, and saying, you know what, I'm going to do X, Y, and Z, because I heard how these other companies have, have tried failed or succeeded as it relates to, you know, adopting new innovation tech.
[00:17:58] Hugh Seaton: And that's, you know, that's funny, that's one of the reasons why cities are sometimes, things move a little bit quicker is you don't have to know how someone did it. Just knowing that they did it means, okay, it's doable. Figure it out. So people don't have to give away the secret sauce. So much as someone saying I did this, other people are going to say it's doable for someone that looks like me.
That's the same size company or the same mean, a great example of that is at some, at a conference I went to. There was a contractor who talked about their data strategy and it was really sophisticated. And, you know, I, I was, I was blown away by how far along they are and how sophisticated their, their way of thinking about it was.
And I know there are people in that room who said, If they can do it, we can do it. Cause we build the same buildings and hire the same people and so on and so forth. It's a strategic decision that a competitor has made. What's going to happen when this really comes to fruition and starts to impact their ability to estimate and win jobs and then, you know, successfully complete them and make more money.
And I think that's, that's really exciting the fact that they, in that case, the fact that they shared as much as they did, I did think was I was pleasantly surprised because it was pretty deep. But I think that's what coming together is all about. Right. And people can talk about this on a LinkedIn post, but it's nothing like going to an event and, or being on a round table with someone where you get to actually shake their hand and ask questions that, that, you know, and, and I think there's a trust in here too.
Right? I, I, I trust that this person has done what they say and is, you know, they're not just posting for clicks, but they actually, you know, we can, I can get into it and really understand it. And I think that's critical.
[00:19:33] Todd Mustard: I do too. And, you know, I, I think it needs to happen more often, you know, and I, and I, and I also think too, like, as it relates to innovation tech, in some ways, the more people or more companies that are adopting and, you know, the higher the bar gets raised, the better the whole industry is, and does, you know?
So like if you're a GC or a subcontractor and there's, you know, one sub or specialty contractor onsite, That is sort of a laggard they're kind of pull down the whole team or group, you know, in some ways, you know, so I think there's an incentive basically to have us all kind of pushing forward, if that makes sense.
[00:20:15] Hugh Seaton: Yeah. It, it really, it really does kind of pushing forward together and, and, you know, understanding the pitfalls of it. I mean, one of the points that you've hinted at is risk, right. Is it that there's a concern about the risk of doing things and the more we're doing this together, the less, the sense of risk is, and at some point it feels like a risk not doing it.
[00:20:37] Todd Mustard: Yeah, exactly. That's like the tipping point.
[00:20:40] Hugh Seaton: That's exactly the tipping point you're right.
[00:20:43] Todd Mustard: I I think, you know, here's a, this is kind of a silly example, but you know, the trades or the construction workers there's a pretty significant portion of them that prefer not to have their checks paid via direct deposit.
They would rather have like a physical check. Printed onsite, you know, that they'll literally take as they're walking off their last job. Right. And can you imagine the inefficiency that, that creates, you know, in terms of a contractor now has to hire a payroll person to be on site and on, you know, staff that in like printing checks and whereas, you know, Other industries are talking about blockchain, you know?
And so sometimes I wonder, you know, is there going to be this generational shift? And we're just, it's going to be like a flip of a switch and there's the tipping point, you know, and some of these, these kind of silly or not silly, but you know, these things that other industries may or may not have to deal with is going to just be completely gone.
Just because of time, you know? Now personally, I don't really want to wait for that necessarily. I don't want to wait for an older generation to retire or whatever, to push forward. And I don't think it's really necessary, but like it's just there are unique things that our industry has to deal with that I don't think other industries do.
[00:22:14] Hugh Seaton: You know i, it's funny. I think that, that the industry attracts people who really value personal freedom, the ability to move around and just kind of stretch your legs and, and so on. And I wonder if some of what you see is that, and, and I think part of the point of. A vibrant startup ecosystem is somebody can figure out how to make that sense of control and freedom.
Not be about a piece of paper that gets printed, or they're saying, no, you can print it on anything. And here's the mark, or here's the thing that makes it act like a check. I mean, you see what I mean? Like I think ironically there are, there are probably technological ways to address the underlying reason why people want that, but that's, that's what the industry is getting better at.
And that's what events like, like IGI are great at is, is the innovators, the people that are thinking in terms of technology, get to hear from real people. And actually kind of divine almost why they think that, why there, you know what I mean? Like ask themselves, why are you doing this? That's what a product manager is supposed to do is try to ask what's the underlying reason why they feel like they need a physical check.
I honestly, I think it's a sense of control, you know, but that's, that's it, that's an easy one to get at. If you ask a couple people and kind of, you know, have a beer with them and try to get under why they're thinking like that. So I think you're right. I think there's going to be a generational shift, but I also think it's, it's up to the providers of software and technology to meet people where they are, as opposed to where we wish they'd be.
That was the eighties.
[00:23:49] Todd Mustard: I agree. I think there's a lot of truth in that. Cause you know, at the same time we're talking about like trying to appeal to like a new generation. At IGI this year we were lucky enough to have the volunteer president of the girl Scouts of the USA and she spoke and she connected us with a number of troops in the local St. Louis area. And they were able to come to IGI, check out the trade show. And really see, you know, how construction may not be what you think it is, right. Cause it's changing and, for the better. And, and I think that kind of experience will make, you know, a kid, you know, maybe rethink what they, their potential career options are.
And it goes back to another thing you said earlier, you know, where just the importance of representation. Right. And I think. That makes a ton of sense when we're talking about diversity and inclusion and equity, having when, when a woman like Vicky O'Leary at the iron workers who just got nominated or is now on this national apprenticeship committee under DOL, but seeing a woman in a position of power at an international union is I think an inspiring and it's, it also just shows I'm a woman, I can, I can also do this.
And I think the trades are getting better and better at that, inclusion. Because, you know, I saw a recent statistic I think was 80, 88% of the construction industry is I think white and male, you know, that's got to change. I mean, I know we're two white guys talking to each other now, but the industry, we need more people. I mean, robotics are great, but at the same time, if we're going to have $1.7 trillion infrastructure package pass, if it does pass, there's a lot of work to do for our country and, and just the industries that our contractors serve. We need people. We need people to do that work.
And one of the things I love about my job is honestly the fact that I work for organization that has contractors that make great money, but they also pay their people a quote unquote, living wage. They have great benefits. You know, a pension fund, which is unheard of in most industries, you know, health and welfare benefits that some people in Congress have called Cadillac plans cause they're so good. Uh, which like, like there's supposed to be a negative aspect of that?
So my dad joined the military out of college and it changed his life forever. You know it moved him to the middle-class for sure. And I think the trades are... and construction is another great opportunity to give people a better life and move them into the middle, if not higher, you know, top of the middle-class which I think is a great service for society.
I completely
[00:26:47] Hugh Seaton: agree. Talk to me a little bit about some of the key stakeholders that are part of TAUC, you know, whoever that might be contractors. So on folks that really kind of form the lifeblood of what you do.
[00:26:59] Todd Mustard: Sure. So the way our membership kind of breaks down of the 1800, we have a subsect, which we call governing members.
They pay a little bit more in dues, but then they are active and engaged in the governance of the organization. And there are about 70 of those companies. You can find them on TAUC.org but, the ones I've already mentioned, Barton Malow and Walbridge companies like Kiewit, Alberici, see burns and McDonnell and a lot of others.
They're located all over the country. They're serving on our board on these different committees for us. And they're very integral to what we do. We just met our board, just met in Colorado. We had a leadership summit with a couple of our legacy partners, Milwaukee tool and Procore.
And we went over, this kind of, the strategic goals and initiatives we want to accomplish as an organization. And. They added, not only to those four buckets, I mentioned earlier safety, industrial relations, government affairs in innovation and tech, but a couple others education and training, and then customer sort of outreach and development.
And I think we're gonna be doing some different things here in the future, that I'm really excited about. And I think, could potentially have a huge impact on the industry.
[00:28:19] Hugh Seaton: That's awesome. Hey, let's end with, where you see things going over the next five years. How are, how do you see the industry shifting?
And I mean, we're in a funny place where the pandemic has had a lot of impact on how people work. For potentially what they want to build. You just mentioned somebody who's going to do an infrastructure bill at some point, whether it's this round or maybe in a couple of years, but, how do you see the world shaking out over the next five years? What should people be looking out for?
[00:28:49] Todd Mustard: You know, I think over the next five years, we're going to see a sort of convergence. Between some of these environmental concerns in construction. And I think there's going to actually be a really a huge amount of work associated with, you know, becoming more quote unquote, , environmentally friendly. You know, Biden has, has talked about, you know, needing over a million battery charging stations across the country to make these electric vehicles work Ford, GM, Fiat-Chrysler or Stellantis as they're called now, they're investing billions of dollars in battery plants.
So I think, I think energy, is going to be a really interesting play. And I think there's with micro grids and in just battery plants in general. We're hoping there's one being developed in Tennessee that we're hoping our contractors have an opportunity to, to build out for, I believe it's general motors.
But I think there's going to be a ton of opportunity there. And I think, you know what, we're going to all benefit with cleaner air and, you know better drinking water and et cetera, et cetera
[00:30:01] Hugh Seaton: and cars with amazing torque.
[00:30:04] Todd Mustard: Cars with amazing torque and, you know, hopefully like I just, when I moved, so I now live in Portland, Oregon, but I had spent about 18 years in Washington DC.
And when I moved, I drove 46 hours in my gas guzzling for a four wheel drive car with my dog. And that is the one thing I, I am I'm a fan of the road trip. And I think as long as the battery. Powered cars can get to a place where, you know, you can go to a national park that is not, you know, it's sort of off the beaten track, like a glacier or a Yellowstone.
Then that's going to be that tipping point we talked about earlier, you know...
[00:30:46] Hugh Seaton: very cool. Well, Todd, thank you for being on the podcast. This has been fantastic.
[00:30:51] Todd Mustard: Hugh, it was great talking to you. I'd love to come back. Anytime
[00:30:55] Hugh Seaton: I look forward to it.