Larry Aoun is a project manager at Gilbane Building Company, where he'll oversee the process of bringing in customer requirements, turning those into logs, running the job then finally handing over the project to the owner. We discuss progress of digitizing this process. A fantastic view into how projects are run and what goes into making sure that requirements are communicated, managed and tracked across a project's lifecycle.
Hugh Seaton: [00:00:00] Welcome to constructed futures, I'm Hugh Seaton. Today, I'm here with Larry Aoun project manager for Gilbane. Larry, welcome to the podcast.
Larry Aoun: [00:00:11] Hi Hugh, Great to be with you.
Hugh Seaton: [00:00:13] So Larry, let's start with what you do.
Larry Aoun: [00:00:16] I am a project manager for Gilbane building company. We're a general contractor based out of Rhode Island. We're 150 year old GC, and my experience has been pretty diverse, building hospitals, high schools, retail space and industrial.
Hugh Seaton: [00:00:33] Awesome. So when we were pre-gaming for this, We talked a little bit about how specs get received, processed and dealt with by general contractors, something I actually haven't heard a whole lot about despite the fact that I work at CSI.
So I wanted to hear each step of that. So let's start with how you get them. What's the first thing that, that a GC gets.
Larry Aoun: [00:00:57] So the first thing we get, is we usually get a share drive with a PDF of all the drawing documents and specifications. And from there, it's a matter of kind of getting familiar with the specs and sort of shifting through it.
It's like somebody dropping a huge pile of papers on your desk. So we don't get the spec in any kind of database that we can sort through. We get the spec in a PDF, and now there are some, there's some software out there, like Bluebeam, like Procore that will help you process that PDF a little bit easier.
But, you know, it's, we do it today in the same way it would have been done, you know, 30, 40, 50 years ago. And that's reading through the spec, we'll create a log of all the different spec sections and sometimes that log doesn't necessarily, jive with the index page that the architect has given us.
So the architect will give us, an index page telling us which spec sections we should have received. And sometimes we'll receive spec sections that were not on the index page. And sometimes the index page will have spec sections that we didn't receive. So we have to go literally spec section by spec section and create a log of all the information that we've received.
And then if you have to adjust something with the architect or ask them for a spec section or, tell them that we have a spec section that's not on the next page, sometimes we'll get spec sections. And a lot of these specs are sometimes generic. So we'll get spec sections for something that we don't think is in the project.
So we'll go back to the architect and say, Hey, You gave us a spec section for structural steel, but there's no structural steel on this job. Are we missing something in the plans or should we not receive this spec? So the initial, I guess, review of the specs is to go through it and just figure out what we have.
We then take that information and we create a spec log and we want to tell each of the different bidders on the job, which spec sections they're going to be working on which spec sections they're going to need to use throughout the project. So for our concrete sub, we're going to tell them, okay, all of the division three specs of the concrete specs, those are gonna be your scopes of work.
And then, you know, with drywall, plumbing so on and so forth. So we want to make sure that we're clear with the subcontractors, the spec sections that they own. And sometimes that can get a little confusing. You have, you know, sealants may be where you'll have five or six different subcontractors touching that spec or using that spec.
So we'll have to kind of break down the spec section, figure out which specs do we want to give to which bidders. And then from there, I mean, you know, we'll use that spec section or sorry that, that spec book throughout the entire project, it'll go out to vendors. Vendors will use it to figure out what they need to provide as far as product.
Subs will look at it from a quality and installation methods standpoint, added stock, submittals, product data, close out requirements, all that it'll just be taken out of the spec and all that'll just be read and sort of processed, talk to subs about, and things go from there.
Hugh Seaton: [00:04:17] In the beginning, you talked about you getting this, you know, hundreds, thousands page.
Yeah. So really, really a lot there, book that is, you know, not gripping narrative, but it's a lot of data. It's a lot of sections of lists, lists of requirements and so on and so forth. Who does this?
Larry Aoun: [00:04:37] So we usually assign a project engineer, and they will manage the spec book throughout the entirety of the project.
So they will create the spec logs and the spec matrixes, they will send out the requirements to each of the different subcontractors, go create the submittal and close out logs. So there's a lot of leg work. There's a lot of reading. It's very time consuming going through the spec book.
And as you said, it's thousands and thousands of pages, so information can get lost along the way. So it's really important that everybody's trying to capture all these little details. You know, there, there are numerous occasions where, you'll start construction, you'll say, oh no, I forgot this was in the spec.
Or maybe we miss something in the spec or there may be conflicts between the specs and the drawings. So thickness of drywall is a common one that I see. The spec section will say, or the drywall spec will say, you know, you need a three quarter inch or five, eight inch drywall. And then the drawings may say half inch for a certain piece of drywall.
So you'll get some conflicts and get some misses. So it's really something that a project engineer manages. And something that sort of is, is a full-time job.
Hugh Seaton: [00:05:53] And a lot of what you're you were talking about is taking from a flat document, which is a PDF and putting it somewhere else. So I would assume there's a fair amount of, you know, literal transcription where someone's retyping things.
Is that right?
Larry Aoun: [00:06:08] Yeah. When we create these logs, Procore I don't have extensive use with Procore. We, we just rolled it out at Gilbane, but when somebody is creating a spec log or a matrix or submittal log, you're literally typing words into an Excel sheet. So, you know, obviously PDFs and Excel, don't work together very cleanly.
So it's reading the spec book. It's having the spec book on one side, one monitor, and it's having Excel on the other. You may be able to copy and paste a little bit to be a bit more efficient, but yeah it's copying that information or typing that information in. And sometimes for example, in the submittal log you'll have, you know, 10 or so different categories that you want to capture from the spec.
Each of the different submittal requirements, each of the different closeout requirements, O & Ms, things like that. So there was a lot of reading and retyping. And I think, you know, we had talked about this previously, but some sort of database to be able to filter the spec book is something that seems well within our grasp as far as technology is concerned, but doesn't seem to be widely used or used at all in the industry.
So why the spec book cannot be put into a database on the architects end is something that I don't understand why we're not there as far as technologies .
Hugh Seaton: [00:07:32] or even when you get one that, where's the, you know, software that can ingest it for you. And I mean, I think one of the points that you hear in, in construction technology generally, is that we've been taking flat data or flat information and turning it into modern data that lives in a database that you can do things with. And that's what we talk about. The Procore's and the viewpoints and Autodesk construction cloud.All of them are about taking what was paper and flat and turning it into data that you can do things with with all that, that means though, right?
Is it now you have to code data the same way and you have to, you know, all sorts of different, different other things.
Larry Aoun: [00:08:09] I think Procore does have a program now, or I think it's maybe a plugin. I don't know what the technological term is, but they do have a program that can create close out log for you, or a submittal log for you by sort of having a piece of software or an algorithm that reads the spec book and extracts with what they think are the right items that need to be submitted on or the right close out documents that you need. But I I've never used it myself. And I don't know, every architect is going to call a certain, close out document or submittal, maybe something different. So I don't know how good of a job that program does at extracting all of the necessary requirements, but there are so many other things that the spec book is used for, and they're not just all constantly captured or why, why are we having to take, and I don't know, again, the technology terms, so why are we taking sort of a flat document, a PDF, and having to extract that and create something that we can use, and something that can be made into sort of a digital, I'd call it maybe a database format.
Why can't we get it in a format or why can't it talk directly that the spec writing software talk directly to a Procore or some sort of project management software and sort of pass that information along. Why are you having to create an algorithm that's reading a PDF? You know, I, I don't understand that.
Hugh Seaton: [00:09:38] Thus has our industry, is it not?
Is that we've got islands and silos of, of specialty and expertise that have evolved their own way of doing things. And it's tough to have them change what they're doing. And this is true for, you know, contractors as well, right. A lot of times the job is, is really hard and getting the building up out of the ground safely is really hard.
So at the end, getting all the pieces for the next phase, you know, Gilbane is a world-class company and I'm sure you guys do a fantastic job of it, but I'm also sure you've heard out in the industry that there are stories, lots of them. Of general contractors, you know, handing off to facilities teams less than they were supposed to, or less than even in the contract said to the point, I've heard facilities people talk about how contractors have walked away from money, because it was more expensive to recreate what was required than the money they would have been paid. It was just a better economic decision to move on. Now that makes some assumptions about never doing business with people again. So I'm not saying that happens a lot. The point I'm making is that, that a lot of what I think the construction industry or the built environment industry is beginning to do more and more of is, is different phases, playing more nicely with each other.
It's just, you know, it's a lot of years of, of momentum and experience and not a few contracts that also kind of make that harder.
Larry Aoun: [00:10:56] Yeah. I mean, you know, one thing about the facilities teams is, who is that person at the end of the project, that's going to say, okay, there's a faucet on the second floor of this building and we don't have an O & M manual for it.
So who's the person that's going to identify that a requirement has been missed. And when you talk about thousands of specs, when you talk about an infinite number of vendor and product manufacturer data, you know, there, there is no one person that has a grasp on every single requirement or every single item that, either the specs or the owner has asked to be received or should have been received.
So there's nobody, you know, it's up to the general contractor, obviously to compile all that information. But, you know, it's a huge undertaking to do that. And I think obviously Gilbane we're like you said, we're a world class organization and we have the systems and processes to put together all of this information and it's a big lift.
But you know, if you talk about vendors and all the different information that they provide on all their products, you're talking about an infinite ocean of information. So if the end user says, okay, we don't have this for this product, or we don't have that for that product. I mean, who, who is the person that is ultimately policing that?
And you know, that that's just something that's a work in progress once it's identified that something has been missed or maybe not even missed that there's a requirement that was, you know, wasn't captured it, wasn't written down anywhere. We have to go out and get it, or we have to ask the vendor sometimes we'll call the vendor and the vendor doesn't know where the information is.
So when you talk about data, right, it's just a huge ocean of information to weed through it. And then, you know, that kind of brings us back to the beginning of the conversation is where, where are these databases where these things that can be searched and filtered.
You know, condensed to okay, we're looking for something for this faucet or something for the paint that's on this wall. So, you know, I don't know that there will ever be one place. Construction is such a huge word. I mean, we talk about construction, construction technology, but you know, construction is somebody doing landscaping and residential lawn, construction is somebody building a bridge. Construction is somebody you know rebuilding the Notre Dame cathedral that burnt down. There's you know, and the systems and project management software and submittals, and things like that for, you know, a European cathedral renovation is going to be, you know, night and day from a bridge, maybe in California or...
construction that's a big word. Yeah. And, you know, I don't know that there's ever going to be one system or one technology that's going to disrupt the industry because the industry is, means so many different things to so many different people. But when you do look at certain slices of construction or project management, there are definitely some huge holes that can be filled in, or a lot of ways that we can improve things that we do.
Hugh Seaton: [00:14:04] To answer one of your early questions a moment ago about who's the one who's assessing this. A lot of times I'm hearing people that aren't worried about what might've been missing, but how to operate what they've been given. And I get the sense and people will tell you this, that even on the owner's side, You know you're often talking about something that took 18 months or two years to get done so that the clarity on their end often isn't always what it could be. Right. And then you talk to people like Google, who makes data centers, or you talk, Microsoft are all the folks that make really high specification, really high tests, you know, high intensity for lack of a better word, but they do them over and over. Right. So they know exactly what they're looking for and they know exactly what they need.
So they, they not only are clear about that and as a result so is their contractor, they check in along the way, because you know, you're also talking about... can you imagine building a data center today when every six months something meaningful is changed? and every, every aspect they're doing things like, like Microsoft made a, at least I saw on the news, they made a data center that they put under water, just for cooling. They're like, you know, let's try. I don't think it worked. I think by the time everything was looked at, it was too expensive, but it just speaks to the fact that they're trying all these different things to try to lower the carbon footprint. And because my God did, they use a lot of electricity. So I think that's one end of the spectrum and then someone's house being the other right. Where it's not a one-off it's it's, you know, you may or may not know the same people and so on and so forth. So I think the, the idea of who your facilities manager is, is of course going to vary.
Larry Aoun: [00:15:43] And also you have a client that's doing the same project over and over the same type of project. I mean, I think of a McDonald's or Walmart, you know, they built that restaurant or that, you know, grocery store so many times that their process is pretty seamless. You know, they're not going to have too many issues.
With what requirements they're asking for or what products they've chosen. I mean, they learn every time something goes wrong at a store or something's missing in a store. They can improve it on the next one and, you know, multiply that by hundreds and thousands of stores. And you end up with a system and a product that is, you know, requires very few change orders.
And they understand what they're going to be getting from the general contractor. But if you talk a one-off developer, you know, somebody doing a residential tower, and this is maybe their first or second project, or a homeowner even you're going to have a lot of issues trying to capture... I wouldn't say a lot of issues, but they're not going to understand, what they've bought or, or know really what they want as much as a sophisticated client.
Hugh Seaton: [00:16:49] And presumably they're hiring in the people that do know, towards the end or, or even at the end, right there, they're hiring someone to manage the facility. They're not hiring them at the beginning, they're hiring them at the end.
So, you know, it's probably more of a financial group in the beginning. That's specifying all this. They probably, they may or may not have brought in a construction management consultant or somebody to help them with it. But often I bet they don't.
Larry Aoun: [00:17:15] Right. I mean, on the front end, you know, the, obviously your sophisticated clients have these people that are their construction folks and understand what they want.
But, you know, even I did a house renovation, recently for myself, You know, buying products for a construction site. People think that, you know, construction is like I said, just one word and there are very few, variables. But you know, buying something for a house or building is like, it's like shopping for clothes.
...a million different light fixtures, thousands of different types of wire. There's, you know, different floor tile. I mean, endless floor tile. You can even imagine. Or forget tile. I mean, flooring options, do I go with wood? You know, then when I have the wood, do I want to glue it down? Do I want to float it to I'm going to nail it?
What kind of glue do I want to use? And there's a thousand different types of glue. So we've created so many different products that nobody is going to have a good understanding of everything. So when you talk about an owner, an owner has to convey to the architect, what they want in their building.
But what they want, they may not know all of their options, and there's no way that anybody's going to be an expert on all these different products, because there are millions and millions and millions of products. And even within categories, there are so many different products.
That's why you're seeing a lot more, on the consulting side. So there, there are flooring experts out there, concrete experts, waterproofing experts, and you need these people. You need to lean on these people. As the number of products grows, the expertise needed for all the different divisions to understand all of your different options has grown exponentially as well.
So I don't think there's any one person or even a group that understands all of the components of a building and all of the options for different finishes and things like that. So, you know, we are relying on industry experts more and more these days.
Hugh Seaton: [00:19:21] And I think that speaks to one of the, I don't know about unique, but certainly remarkable points about construction and the built world generally, as you're talking about things that lasts for 50 years and have a lot of different people doing things in them. So everything that you have to think about, what's it going to be like the, the 500th time that door was opened and, or when the 10000th person has walked across that tile, what's it going to be like?
And that's where your point about expertise. And, you know, on the one hand, it's really good that we live in a system where anyone, who has an idea can put something out into the marketplace. I mean, they need a couple of bucks to do it, but you know, okay. There's plenty of bucks around, but as a result, that doesn't mean that everything works the way, or it lasts the way they might think it does.
You know what I mean? Just cause you can make a tile doesn't mean, you know how I'm just picking on tiles here doesn't mean that you necessarily know how a tile is going to behave after five years.
Larry Aoun: [00:20:18] Correct. And that ultimately falls on your facilities management folks. Who hopefully have gotten a product that is easy to manage and maintain, but you know, sometimes that's not the case.
And that's how I think specs and product data has become so complicated, is because you never take away requirements, but you're constantly adding, right. Every time something goes wrong, every time a paing doesn't stick or A paver in the driveway sinks or, you know, concrete cracks, you learn something new as time goes on, you learn new things and all of the rules you've made up to that point, okay some of them change, but most of them stay in place. So those specs are constantly getting added to, but very rarely are you saying, okay, we're going to take this requirement away. So that really has increased the amount of data that's out there and has further, driven home the need to have a easy way to filter some of this data and have it kind of in one place that that can be used a little bit easier than, than just reading a PDF.
Hugh Seaton: [00:21:27] Yeah. And, and I think this, again, highlights the difference between, you know, information that is flat, then you're digitizing it and then you're , digitalizing. Which doesn't sound great to me, but that's what we say is that you're making the process digital, not just the information and having things as data that can be moved around and reprocessed and regrouped and so on and so forth.
It's just a different beast from having entries in an Excel spreadsheet where you really can't do anything. I mean, you can, within Excel, you can do different things, kind of. But
Larry Aoun: [00:22:02] That's why we put it in Excel. Excel has a filter option, so that's why we, that's why we use that instead of word. But, you know, there are these, these disconnects, there are these rivers that need sort of, I would say bridges to cross them.
So between the architect and the general contractor, when information gets passed, on the project management software end, there is a easy way to sort of process RFIs and submittals and things like that, but on the design end, that just turns into PDF. And then there is sort of that line in the sand where that software is not talking to any of the project management software.
Hugh Seaton: [00:22:41] Yeah. Again, our issue in a newly digitizing industry is I think two things. One is things don't talk to each other. Like they will over time, but also there's an expectation that they'll all seamlessly talk to each other, which doesn't happen anywhere else. Right. Like if you went to the accounting industry or you went to, I dunno, uh, manufacturing, their stuff doesn't talk to each other until they make it talk to each other.
And that usually means an IT team that's building bridges. So somewhere in Gilbane, there was a, there's going to be a team, right now? That is either under IT or innovation or operations, something like that. And they're working on this, you know what I mean? That's just what happens is that, that as you develop and you hear enough project managers saying, guys, you know, this is driving me nuts and I'm burning up man hours on retyping and connecting and hooking that you guys start to to have, uh, an enterprise bus or you have the IPaaS, there's just different ways of hooking this together.
Right? Again, companies of your size, have a tendency to do that.
I want to ask a little bit about the specs that come in and you mentioned that, sometimes they'll be talking about something that's harder to find or that's this it's or it's missing or various other things. Does constructability come into how you interact with the specs?
I mean, they're supposed to know, and I'll bet you 99% of the time they're right. But all those requirements you talked about and how tight things can be sometimes. And so on. How often are you finding that you're pushing back and saying that's not constructable like that. We need it, like this.
Larry Aoun: [00:24:13] Yeah. I mean, the architects, I think our industry learns by doing so if you have an architect who produces a spec and there's a constructability issue with it, they're fixing that for the next job. So, you know, construction's been around since, you know, mankind has been around. And every project, every time you do something, you capture those RFIDs or you capture those change orders and you say, Hey, how do we fix this next time?
So the architects are in touch with the manufacturers and the subcontractors and they do know what the constraints are and constructability, but you still run into certain issues, usually to do with a new product or, to do with the condition in the field. So if you talk about, you know, a certain requirement for soil compaction and maybe some of the soils out there are not able to be compacted per the specifications or the thicknesses of some of the bases we're having issues with out in the field or something like that, or you have a products that have have changed since the spec is written. So whenever you specify a TV, for example, by the time, you know, when that spec is written, which is early on in the project, by the time you go to buy that TV at the end of the project, cause that's the last thing that's going to be put into the building, that model is no longer relevant. So you can't buy what is written in the spec. You have to buy something else. So, so technology changes, materials change, and those are the things that sometimes, okay. You know, we want this sort of paint or we want this type of a fire alarm system. And then when you go to buy that fire alarm system, okay, we don't make it like this anymore, or even technology has changed things like that. So you do run into those, but, we try to read through the spec early on in the project and we pass that along to the subcontractors very early in the project, they look through it and they'll usually identify, normally in the bidding stage that, Hey, we cannot meet the requirements of the specs section.
Or we cannot provide a product that meets this requirement, because either it's no longer made or, they don't make it quite how the architect is describing it, or possibly conditions in the field don't allow for this requirement to be met.
Hugh Seaton: [00:26:35] Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. And it's good to hear that, that constructability isn't high on the list.
So let's finish with appropriately. Talk to me a little bit about how this all ends. So the last X amount of weeks or months that are spent, pulling all this information back together for the closeout and handover and all that, how does that normally go.
Larry Aoun: [00:26:56] So towards the end of the project, you are delivering on all of your requirements. So the architect will usually inspect the building. They'll do their architect punch walk, and they understand their spec sections well enough to be able to walk the field and say, okay, you didn't comply with this.
Usually it's at that stage of punch-out stages. Not that you didn't comply with something, because at that point we would have, we would have, you know, it's little things, you're looking for little things. So usually it's sort of punch and, and making sure that that all the requirements were met and then on the deliverable end, it's close out documents.
So, so getting close out documents from subcontractors is sometimes a challenge, because they are so focused on doing the work. See the subcontractor's expertise is putting work in place and that's what they hire their people for. That's what they're focused their attention for, that's what we need them to do.
And the administration end of being a subcontractor is sometimes overlooked because more of the focus is put on putting work in place. So we have to, you know, sometimes call a few times to a subcontractor's office or to talk to their project manager to say, okay, we need your O & M manuals. We need your, as built, we need whatever the spec section requires of them. And then they have to go out usually to their vendors. Cause that's where most of this information comes from. So if they're a painter they'll go out to a Sherwin Williams for example, and say, okay, I need the material safety data sheets.
Well, that'd be something probably more earlier in the job, but any of the warranties and usually warranties will come from the subcontractor for labor and then from the manufacturer for material warranties. So they have to go out towards the end of the project and collect all of these requirements.
They give them to us, we put them in some sort of a database, and then we will pass that database along to the owner. Some owners want all of this information printed. So we have to print piles and piles of paperwork that we will hand over to the owner. So it just depends on how the owner wants to receive the closeout documents.
And we'll compile that either digitally or we'll print it or both. And then it's handed over to the owner. And then all of the closeout requirements so, transmittals for attic stock,as-builts things like that are submitted to the architect for approval. So if I have an as built of underground plumbing, I'll submit that to the architect, the architect will stamp it, say okay, this looks good.
And then it goes into the closeout file and that approved close out document will be handed over to the owner. So the architect does look at all the different close out documents and make sure that they comply with the requirements and the specifications before they go to the owner.
Hugh Seaton: [00:29:54] This has been great.
We've dove into some things that I was aware of and didn't know about and so I've really learned a lot. Larry, thank you for being on the podcast.
Larry Aoun: [00:30:02] Absolutely. Thank you for having me.