Red Team started within a mid-tier construction company, and has grown over the years to address the distinct needs of this market segment. Frederic Guitton, Red Team's Chief Revenue Officer, shares his insights about Construction's mid-market, and how Red Team addresses those needs. Learn more at: https://www.redteam.com/
Hugh Seaton: [00:00:00] Welcome to Constructed Futures. I'm Hugh Seaton. Today, I'm here with Frederick Guitton, chief revenue officer for Red Team software. Fred, welcome to the podcast.
Frederic Guitton: [00:00:13] Hey Hugh, how are you?
Hugh Seaton: [00:00:14] Very good. Very good. Today We're going to talk about one of my favorite topics and that's the mid tier of construction companies. Talk to me a little bit about what you've learned in and how you guys approach them.
Frederic Guitton: [00:00:25] Yeah. So first and foremost, you know, the mid tier market is basically the largest market in construction, where you have a lot of very small companies. You have a few very large companies but the majority of construction companies, especially in the commercial space, which flowing into the mid tier market.
And while the biggest thing we've learned is that they vary very widely. Well, there's uniform processes across the construction industry that are fairly accepted. What we're seeing is that they are organized very differently, depending on the strength of the employees that they have. So it's a very interesting space to serve
Hugh Seaton: [00:01:02] and is some of that variation also that, that different companies kind of grow up around different kinds of buildings or different kinds of, of trades and so on.
Frederic Guitton: [00:01:10] That's right. Yeah. It could be the kind of buildings that they're focused on. It could be also simply driven by the market they're in, I mean, they tend to be hyper-local companies, right. So they will build, you know, within some of them will stay, you know, within just their state, maybe a little bit outside their state, but not much.
And so, yeah, you've got, you know, a variety of specializations that happen with those companies. But what's most interesting is that, you know, a lot of employees of those smaller, mid tier construction companies have worked in large environments, so they have a view of construction and then they get into these companies and they go, wow, I have to do a lot more here because I don't have a project engineer working with me. I have to do what my project engineer used to do for me on my project. I have to know how to do that myself. And so it's a really interesting shift that we see as we talk to people that make the transition between either very small to mid tier or very large to mid tier.
Hugh Seaton: [00:02:12] And that you put your finger on one of the, one of the questions I was going to ask, which is, if you were to think about how people in mid tier companies differ from people in larger companies, it sounds like one of them is that they've just got to do more or at least, you know, do more types of things. Is that right?
Frederic Guitton: [00:02:30] Yeah. And, and it's, it's, it's that they have to know typically a broader Amount of, of like functionalities in the company. Right. So what I found interesting is, again, like you think about very large companies, you can specialize the employee because there's so much of each task to do.
When you're a mature company, you know, the project manager has to think like an owner almost. And oftentimes the owner himself will be a project manager in the construction company they own. And that's another big differentiator you see in mid-year construction companies is typically the ownership is very involved in the day-to-day operations and day-to-day of the business.
Hugh Seaton: [00:03:16] Yeah, that makes, that makes a lot of sense. So when you think about how you go and approach these folks as Red Team, as head of revenue how different is it because presumably they don't have a big innovation team and they don't have worked out processes for bringing in new stuff.
How do you guys tend to tend to approach them?
Frederic Guitton: [00:03:34] So we tend to approach them by first asking what are problems that they are looking to solve. Right, and understanding what their point points are. What I can say is that they don't to fairly uniform you know, most companies, frankly, big and small struggle with managing the amount of information on the job site and not just managing the information that gets produced, but managing the flow of that information, making sure that everybody on the job site has the information they need when they need it, in order to do their job properly.
And then the second layer behind that is being able to keep a proper record of when did they have that information? So that if a problem arises, you can properly sort accountability. And that's something that's really important because if you think about a commercial general contractors bonding capacity is a huge asset that they have to be very protective of.
And so if you get yourself into trouble and you can't get insurance or, or you have losses on your surety bonds that could destroy your business. So, you know, risk management is really, really important element for the mid-tier
Hugh Seaton: [00:04:47] And, let's stick to that for a minute. Cause I think that's one of those areas and you kind of just basically said that is that it's a little harder for smaller companies to really have that under control. And it sounds like what you're saying is software like Red Team helps.
Talk a little bit about how it helps with risk and some of the other things you talked about
Frederic Guitton: [00:05:07] Sure
Hugh Seaton: [00:05:07] If I may just one other thing, as opposed to the Excel or other things that it, you know what I mean? Like offering, assuming you're selling against Excel or outlook or something.
Frederic Guitton: [00:05:16] Yeah. I mean, our two biggestcompetitors are the way we've always done it. And the other one is do nothing different. Yeah. And that, those are like two things. Like, I want to keep doing the things I've done and it feels comfortable and that's until the day something goes wrong.
And so one of the big factor that we find mid tier companies really see benefit and frankly we have some larger companies that use Red Team as well, but on the mid tier is being able to passively capture all the meta data, associated with every document. So imagine you produce an RFI and now with Red Team the RFI is shared through what we call a collaborative console.
So we don't send anything as an email attachment. And now the architect opens this RFI and immediately there's a record created saying this was opened by this IP address on this day. So now we know it was seen. So if there's a dispute down the road, we can say, no, no, you have received the information and we have proof you received it.
As a matter of fact, we had a contractor that had a fairly substantial dispute on costs associated with change orders. And the way they were able to defend themselves is by proving that they had sent the proper documentation and also proving that it had been seen. And they used the meta data record tracking in Red Team to protect themselves.
So it's not just knowing that the people know what they need to know when they need to know it, but it's also making sure you know, that they did what they needed to know it, you know, that's an interesting element of managing construction disputes, which are obviously very common.
Hugh Seaton: [00:06:57] Yeah. And that's the kind of the two sides of software like yours, right?
On the one hand, it makes people actually do the job better. But the other side of it is you win, change order disputes because you're able to document what happened when, so you're sort of protecting people on both sides of where they might have risk.
Frederic Guitton: [00:07:15] Right. And obviously one of the goals, right, is to not have to win the disputes. The goal is always to avoid the dispute. And that's also interesting, like we have some of our clients that will actually show their clients say, Hey, listen, you know, we track everything for you. So if anything goes sideways, we'll be able to know that you received the documentation.
It's a pretty good warning signal going. "Listen. If you pretend you didn't see something, but you opened it we'll know you might as well not fight it on us." And by the way, that's actually a big asset. Like we were strong believer that project transparency is key to having successful projects and successful outcomes.
Hugh Seaton: [00:07:58] And, and how do you getting back to the kind of special case of the mid tier, one of the things that we talked about is, you know, on the job site, how do you find the way they'll use a product like red Red Team can be different from somewhere a little bit larger, whether it's roles or whether it's, you know, different things.
Frederic Guitton: [00:08:17] Yeah. So this is always interesting for us, because again, the fact of the matter is. You know, because they wear multiple hats and that's where we, again, that's what we see from, from the use case is the larger company will deploy technology specific to a task because there's a person that one task they do all day, every day is managing submittals.
The other person all day, every day, they do safety reporting. Right? So, so they'll have tools are really specialized for that. Whereas in a mid tier company, that person will do RFI submittals, safety reports, meeting minutes, and you don't want them to go into different platforms to manage that as a construction company, you want to avoid what we call app proliferation.
And so how do you have a platform that is broad enough, deep enough, to provide solution for a lot of problems that construction companies are trying to solve for in their business. And that's been a key focus and you build product very differently when you start thinking about who you serve, which is how Red Team was actually designed.
It was designed based on a company that's about $50 million a year in construction volume.
Hugh Seaton: [00:09:33] That's interesting. So I didn't know that, that you guys started thinking... started from a place of thinking about this market, about folks who wear lots of hats, who maybe don't have the, you know, the time to, to train hard on, on a big complex system.
So you guys started from there and designed to where you are now?
Frederic Guitton: [00:09:52] Yeah. Actually Red Team was born inside of a construction company. Our founder, Mike Wright is a GC himself and he was losing sleep over what promises are being made in the field that I may have to pay for. And so he wanted to have a better way to capture information from the field, so he could review that information and manage the risks associated with all the projects that they owned. And that's what really Red Team came from, is true risk management for a mid-tier construction company. And you know, ultimately for them, it had such an impact that after 10 years of building this software, they said, you know, we probably should offer this to the marketplace.
And so Red Team truly was not built initially to become what it is today. It was built to be used as an internal product.
Hugh Seaton: [00:10:42] That's a cool story. I mean sometimes the best software comes from people growing it in their backyard until it's ready to go see the light of day. And if it was 10 years of, of kind of using it you know, as in software we use the expression, eating your own dog food.
Yeah, not the most colorful thing in the world, but but so 10 years of, of using your own product to, to kind of refine it and, and figure it out. That's pretty cool. When, and when was this, when, when was it made available to the market?
Frederic Guitton: [00:11:11] So it became publicly available in 2008.
Hugh Seaton: [00:11:14] Oh, wow. Okay.
Frederic Guitton: [00:11:16] So we've been around for some time.
Hugh Seaton: [00:11:18] So you've refined it with others as well.
What do you find you know, across the time that you've been there and you've seen the thing grow a little bit, what, what is surprising to you about how people use the software? Either in the beginning or after they've been at it for a while, but what are some, some kind of stories about how people have used it?
Frederic Guitton: [00:11:35] So, I'll share with you a story that was an interesting one. A company bought Red Team based on a very broad sense of "we need to get better." And I kept asking, well, what does that mean to you getting better? And it was actually a very uncomfortable question for them because they had not thought about it.
And so what I have found is a lot of companies are aware that they should adopt technology, but they're not sure why. And so what I'm finding is company, they buy technology, and as they buy technology, there's a discovery process. Its kind of like learn as I go, how can I create value out of this software? And I think there's a certain lack of, you know, Intentionality around "I'm going to spend more time digging into what my needs are, what would be an improvement for my business." And so it's really interesting for us to be able to have those conversations. When a company, after a few months of use realizes that what they thought they could get out of red team is only a fraction of what they actually are able to get, because now they understand the depth that is created for them to be able to know.
It's not just saving time. Like, I'm always careful about this, this myth about save time, right? Because it's always implied that because I save time, I save money. I was like, sort of what I'm going to do. You're going to pay your employees less. You got to pay them less hours per week.
And so it's not really the answer. The real answer is "do you now have employees are more satisfied in their job?" Are they able to focus on other elements of their jobs that makes you more profitable as a business? And those are values that companies typically don't see when they adopt technology, right.
They only see it as they start using it and they go, wait a minute. I actually have more time on my hand to focus on elements on my business or creating more profit.
Hugh Seaton: [00:13:37] And is some of that, that you're automating some of the kind of grunty, you know, over and over repetitive work that people... nobody likes that.
Frederic Guitton: [00:13:46] Yeah. So, so there's two ways that I see, you know, typically where time is saved. One is reducing the amount of dispute. Because, I mean, they're very burdensome and, you know, I mean, they'll really burn up all your energy. They become very consuming for the business. The other part is exactly what you just described is kind of that grunt work.
And one of the biggest place that we see value being created today and we serve GCs. You know, our client is a you know, how do they collaborate with their subs? And so we've built actually a subcontractor collaboration platform where the sub can invoice electronically directly against our schedule of value.
So they cannot invoice outside of the schedule of value. So it goes directly to the project manager to review. They can approve or reject by line item, and the sub gets notified immediately. And one of the PM's that was part of the beta program came back to us and he said, you know, I was spending close to eight hours per week on subcontractor invoice.
And now it's down to one hour.
Hugh Seaton: [00:14:49] That's amazing. That's a day. It's not a real construction day, but it's a normal person day. Yeah.
Frederic Guitton: [00:14:55] It's like it's a half a day in construction. Yeah.
Hugh Seaton: [00:14:57] That's an enormous amount of anxiety that is no longer part of that person's life.
Frederic Guitton: [00:15:03] Yeah. And so that's when you start thinking about what's important for a construction company, really.
So you say. Well, we reduce my risk and you say, well, why? Or I want to make it easier for my people to do their job. Why? And really it comes down to, I want to retain my best employees. I want to recruit the best employees, but those become two core element of how do you create values with technology for your business?
It's not always just this like, "I'm going to save 20 minutes per RFI." Right. There's an economy in there. And how construction companies goes into buying software versus the benefit there was even at the end.
Hugh Seaton: [00:15:39] Actually, do you find that people wind up. I mean, you just put your finger on something interesting.
And that is often people want to reduce time-savings to numbers they can understand. So, you know, like you said, we saved 20 minutes per RFI and we do a thousand RFIs, a job or whatever. You know, and that, that means 20,000 minutes. That seems like it doesn't really work. How do people look at quantitative ROI?
Frederic Guitton: [00:16:06] Yeah. So it depends. Right? So there's different companies that look at it differently. A lot of times it starts with, you know, I'd say three dimensions , time is one of them, it's undeniable. There's an element of time. But the time you save is not always direct time. It's indirect time.
Again, like having less disputes says you allow that time. Right. So, it's like sometimes you're better off spending an extra five minutes for each RFI, to avoid the a hundred hours of dispute on the backend. Right? So, so time is an interesting moving part. The other dimension is risk in general, right?
The risk associated with having to redo work, customer dissatisfaction, lack of transparency on the job site. And the third one, which I find frankly, the most important is how do you keep the best staff.
I had a client that called me a couple of years ago. And they were debating should I buy project management software. And so they were thinking about it and about a month and a half later, two months later, they go, Hey, we have to buy something right now. I was like, what happened?
Hugh Seaton: [00:17:09] This sounds funny.
Frederic Guitton: [00:17:10] Yeah. And he's like, we're losing staff. I go, what do you mean? He goes, well our competitor, bought software. And now they look at how they can do their job easier there, so they're going there. Yeah. And so now what they thought that were needed software for, and what they actually realized they needed software for changed. And it's really fascinating to me when I see that is because while the biggest myth and, and some people won't agree with this, I come from a family of business owners, so I can speak was a pretty high level of confidence is the employees don't care about your business as much as you think they do.
They care, but not as much as you think they do. If they have a way to you have an easier life somewhere else? They're probably going to do it.
Hugh Seaton: [00:17:56] Yeah. That's, that's an interesting one. This idea that, you know, business owners or even leaders within a business they don't even own, have a sense of mission that it definitely dilutes as you go down.
I mean, obviously you have people that are super passionate, but, but the reality is that, you know, the, the less of a leadership role you have very often less of a sense of mission. And that's just, you know, I think that's just pretty normal across industries.
Frederic Guitton: [00:18:24] I mean, that's, that's what like our mission. So we have a mission statement at red team. I think every company has it, but for us, it's helping our colleagues in construction have peace of mind.
Hugh Seaton: [00:18:33] That's a nice one. The point you made earlier actually is, you know, in, in a time when we've got a retiring workforce and it, you know, widely acknowledged skills gap, being able to bring in a millennial that isn't faced with pencil and paper and the way we've done it since the seventies is unquestionably helpful. I mean, I, I hear that a lot. And it sounds a little bit like that example you were talking about was facing the same kind of thing. Right? Is it somebody else felt like a modern place to work and they felt like a less modern place to work.
Frederic Guitton: [00:19:03] That's right. That's right. Another thing I found interesting is in, in. You know, it's a conversation I had very early on in my career when I started dabbling into construction technology, is this myth. And I call it a myth because I do believe it's a myth that construction is really behind on adopting technology.
And, and a lot of even like mid tier companies will call us and they go, yeah, we know we're... you know, we've got to play catch up. And I'm like, you're catching up to what? Yeah. And so when we talk about it and I, and I often like defend the construction industrywith this point of view that I have, which is listen until mobile technology and cloud technology became ubiquitous like they are today, there was no real access to put technology on the job site mid-tier construction companies. It was too expensive. There was no way they could do it. And now with what we have today, I mean was red team. You have a mobile phone and you've got you know, field having a mobile phone. You can do your daily reports and you can do RFIs and punch list items.
And we own FieldLens, and you've got all the subcontractor collaboration, jobsite collaboration. But 15 years ago, wasn't possible the iPhone, you know, didn't even exists.
Hugh Seaton: [00:20:15] Yeah. Yeah, I'm with you on this, this, you know, dispelling this sense of anxiety again, in the construction industry that everyone is so far behind.
I mean, I, I joke that every industry thinks they're the idiots and someone else, some mythical other industry is full of forward-thinking you know, enlightened beings, if you've ever been to Facebook or Google or places that are Silicon valley and are supposed to be, you know, amazing. There are still people hanging out at a desk banging on keys.
Frederic Guitton: [00:20:44] We still have to build their buildings for them.
Hugh Seaton: [00:20:46] That's right. They've got some, they've got some pretty good partners in terms of building stuff, but the point I'm making is everywhere, feels like they're behind or it's a little better somewhere else. I think your point is a great one, that the technology just wasn't appropriate to the complexity of a real job site, forget about the danger and the risk and the dust and all the other things.
It just wasn't appropriate. Even you know, the Panasonic Toughbook at five grand a pop that's an awfully expensive way to look at a schedule.
Frederic Guitton: [00:21:13] That's right. That's right. And then the other part of this is also, construction software companies shouldn't like delude themselves into believing that construction companies can't succeed without us.
Hugh Seaton: [00:21:27] That's an interesting point is that yeah, people are doing it pretty well already that you, you may be able to expand their capability, but the core of what they do, they can do. That's a really interesting point. Humbling.
Frederic Guitton: [00:21:39] Yeah so we stay very focused on that, on, you know, like we, we love construction.
I mean, I'll tell you like Mike and I Mike being the founder of red team, like I would call him on my way home about a building going up, going like, oh, look at how cool this looks. Okay. And what, they've the progress they make today. And that's part of, I think, to serve the mid-tier construction industry, you have to have really an admiration for what these people do.
It's tough. I mean, it's one of the toughest industry. The accounting is very complex for construction, even if you're not that big, it gets complex fast. And so there's a lot of things that, again, like when I think about software companies and, you know, they think kinds of, you know, oh, you guys are really slow and without us you'd be nothing.
And I'm like, They built the pyramid a few thousand years ago before we had electricity, I'm pretty confident builders can figure it out. And, as software companies, we're here to help them have a better quality of life. That's overall I think what we do, but we're not all that different from any other tool they choose on their job site.
Hugh Seaton: [00:22:47] You know, there's a, there's a book from a guy named Mario, I believe it's Carpo, called the "Second Digital Turn". And he starts the book with a story. He's Italian, so of course everything started in Italy. I'm joking, of course, but he makes an example from certain, certain things. And he's talking about building cathedrals, so in this case, he's got a point, but he it's a really good book and I'm not characterizing it well, but in the beginning he talks about how advances in how they use paper plans, made it possible to create much more complex buildings. And it's a really interesting idea. And basically it means before this yeah, they used the, a little drawing here and a drawing there, but they didn't have, and he's talking about like the 1300's or the 1400's, but the idea is that was the technology of the day.
That was the Red Team of the day, is they knew how to build cathedrals before that. But what it did was it allowed them to put things down on paper, so they didn't have to hold it all in their head. It allowed them to take notes so that other people could see what they meant and it allowed the complexity of what they built to be greater.
And I think, you know,it doesn't make you a master builder to be able to write on a piece of paper, but it does make a master builder, a better master builder if they're able to use a tool like that. And I think that's, that's an important, you got to stay humble that at the end of the day, the, the real depth is in the person in the field.
But you know, what we get to do is allow them to use that more effectively. And with, as you say, less risk
Frederic Guitton: [00:24:08] That's right. Yeah. I mean, our place in construction as software companies is we're here to frankly, help them have a better quality of life. Right. And. Be able to do more projects that they enjoy doing, satisfy their customers.
You know, I'll often ask some of my staff, I go, what are the four things a construction company has to have to be successful? And everyone goes into, well, they have to have great communication and they have to have, and they go to all these things, which are all true.
But in reality, you have to have projects to bid. You have to win the bid . You have satisfied customers and profitable projects.
That's it. Everything else you do has to drive the ship in those directions. And if you can't solve for those four items, you'll never be successful as a construction company.
Hugh Seaton: [00:24:57] Yeah. And I want, wanna, I want to acknowledge that and then shift gears. I wanted to ask also about a company that I, I actually did a, believe it or not at a hackathon in their office, is FieldLens.
I know them kind of well, and I knew their, their, their founder, Doug chambers pretty well. Talk to me about how they kind of add to what you guys do and how that sort of field engagement adds to the bigger picture you were just talking about.
Frederic Guitton: [00:25:22] Yeah. And I don't know if you knew that but we actually just acquired Fieldlens.
That's right. What I love about what field lens and what Doug built then, and I got to speak, we Doug personally, I wanted to understand why he built Fieldlens. And. And I think what they've done is, you know, the product has made it so much easier for information in the field to be centralized in a single environment.
So we have all these, these thoughts, right? When you walk a job site and you go, oh, I need to not forget this. Oh, and we did you handle that? And there's all these things, but where do you put all that information? From all the different constituents on the project, it could be a subcontractor, it could be an owner, an architect, it could be you as a GC. And how do you make that visible to everybody and then collaborate on solving all these little problems, which at first, may be a small problem, but could turn into a pretty big problem.
And Doug shared the story of a building, where there was a failure as a water test. On a Friday afternoon and there was a valve that needed to be installed on like, I think a few floors up if I remember correctly and the valve was not installed, so it failed. So they flooded the building and there was a lot of damage associated with that failure and they went up to the valve and there was literally a post-it note on the valve saying this needs to be installed..
Right. And so I love how Fieldlens is so easy to use. I you'd turn it on and 10 seconds you can start a project in 30 seconds. Start taking pictures, load your plans, attach the issues to the plans and then collaborate. So it's not like, so, and that's the interesting thing that you're making me think of here is that the distinction between project management, like that formal environment, what we do at red team, and then the more informal amount of information that exists on the fly on the job site that's what Fieldlens does.
Hugh Seaton: [00:27:20] And since you guys have just bought them, presumably it's not integrated yet, but I'm assuming the plan is to sort of marry some of the strengths of, of, of both.
Frederic Guitton: [00:27:29] Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We, we actually have a lot of thoughts in mind. You know, me being, you know, the guy that you know is driven by, you know, driving revenue and onboarding new customers, bothering everybody like, so what about now? Is it ready now? What about now?
Hugh Seaton: [00:27:47] That's right.
Frederic Guitton: [00:27:47] Like a kid waiting for christmas morning.
Hugh Seaton: [00:27:50] That's right. And they barely cracked the code base open, I'm sure.
Frederic Guitton: [00:27:52] That's right. That's right. I mean, it takes time and you've got to do it, right. So we're, we're, we're taking our time understanding and talking with clients and say, Hey, what is most valuable?
And there are functionalities that exist in both environments. And so we're trying to solve to make sure that. Red team and Fieldlens can function well together and can also work independently, right? Because there's a lot more, frankly there's a bigger market for Fieldlens as a standalone platform than there is for writing, because writing is definitely focused with that mid tier commercial general contractor.
But most of the Red Team users are companies that will range from couple of million dollars a year in revenue to five, $600 million a year in revenues is where our market is. But really the center, it's like 50, 70 million a year. Whereas we Fieldlens, I mean, it's a much, much broader market. I'm talking with multi-billion dollar corporations and local home builders and all of them have that exact same issue of the post-it notes of, I can't forget that.
And how do I take a look? Post somewhere that I can keep and have an automated email every Monday morning saying here is all the posts from last week are still open
Hugh Seaton: [00:29:06] That's cool. It's almost like a CRM for tasks in the field. That's right. So let's kind of bring it home with, you know, what do you tell as an overarching kind of, I don't know a pitch is the wrong word, but when you talk to, to mid tier companies, how do you summarize the value of software like red team?
Frederic Guitton: [00:29:26] So it's a, it's a broad platform that allows each employee to play to its strengths and make sure that all your employees have a single environment to see all the information they need to do their job at the highest level possible.
Hugh Seaton: [00:29:43] That's fantastic.
Frederic Guitton: [00:29:45] So we, we break that silo. Right. And together, bring that point home. What I would say is this know project managers, the last thing they want to do is go talk to the accountant, the back of the office to get an estimated cost at complete, right? Yeah.
They need to have access to this. And the last thing the accountant wants to do is call the project manager saying, Hey, is there a new change order? Because I just got an invoice from my subcontractor here. And I don't know what that's about. And so how do you create complete transparency for your team internally? Which your team typically has five dimensions. You've got your executive team, you have your accounting team, you have your pre-con team, project management team and field team would be your five key teams in a construction company. How do you make sure that they can go into the same place, see the information they need, but see enough of what's coming up so that there is no surprises, which again is how do you prevent stress is creating more transparency and that's what Red Team does.
Hugh Seaton: [00:30:44] So it's that, that single source of truth you hear people talk about, but obviously a lot more
Frederic Guitton: [00:30:50] that's right.
Hugh Seaton: [00:30:51] Fantastic. Well, Fred, thank you for joining me on the podcast. This has been really great talking about a segment that I think there's more and more interest in supporting and, and and making successful.
Frederic Guitton: [00:31:04] Yeah, thank you very much. Very enjoyable conversation, you know, it's I love construction. Yeah. I could talk about it all day long every day.
Hugh Seaton: [00:31:11] Yeah, me too.