Revizto was made to open up BIM and VDC workflows for greater collaboration among the entire team, not just Revit users. Brett Settles brings his years of experience in VDC to our conversation to explain past and current issues, and how Revizto addresses them. Our conversation also covered the interesting idea of technology getting out ahead of management, and their need to understand what is being produced and used - Revizto helps with this issue as well.
Hugh Seaton: [00:00:00] Welcome to constructed futures, I'm Hugh Seaton. Today I'm here with Brett Settles, global director of customer success at Revizto. Brett, welcome to the podcast.
Brett Settles: [00:00:12] Hey Hugh, thanks for having me.
Hugh Seaton: [00:00:14] Yeah, I'm glad to have you here. So Brett, we were talking before we started recording about, you know, the problems that Revizto addresses and there's a lot of them, but the one that kind of everything seemed to ladder up to is this idea of reducing bottlenecks in the VDC workflow.
Talk to me a little bit about what you mean by that, and we'll get into it.
Brett Settles: [00:00:35] Yeah. You know, , since I've joined, has been really focused on delivering and communicating these problems that we find in coordination, design review, model QA in the field, out to people that are not BIM and VDC specialists. And what we found over the years is that it requires a large amount of collection of data and stuff by these VDC people, whether or not you're using Revizto.
And so it's one of those things where we see these problems. We see that we can create an atmosphere where we can kind of break down these choke points of this data. And a lot of it comes down to connecting our issue tracking workflow directly to the way we coordinate models.
Hugh Seaton: [00:01:17] So let me translate some of that for folks that are a little bit less VDC centric. When you talk about these bottlenecks, tell me about some of what they are. Like where's stuff getting stuck.
Brett Settles: [00:01:30] Yeah. That's a, that's a really good question. It really changes in a lot of different scenarios, you know, before I would say 2015, 2016, and I'm sure someone out there will be able to correct me here, but it seems like a lot of the MEP contractors were running coordination.
We still see some of that, but now the GCs tend to run coordination a little bit more, but the problem remains the same, regardless of who's running coordination. And that is all the information is going to one source. Now their internal department could be 10 people. It could be one, and of course more people helps, but it's not a real collaborative data share.
It's all getting funneled through one party. And if that party struggles to get that data out the door, A lot of the times the benefits of VDC are left in the dust.
Hugh Seaton: [00:02:18] Interesting. And so the bottleneck you're talking about is what you were kind of implying a minute ago, is that, it literally is all kind of going through one place.
How do you guys, how do you address that? What do you do about that?
Brett Settles: [00:02:32] Yeah, it's really interesting because I've been a long time user. I started in design technology and have been in construction technology since I really finished up the last few years at my old job and came to Revizto. And what I found as is, especially with our product is the issue tracking. And that open communication is very important, but what it didn't connect to was directly to the authoring tools in a lot of ways like. We had to go to Navisworks to get clash data. We had to bring in the drawing stuff from Revit and there was a model management workflow that'd be put in place to take advantage of our software.
And so we figured out, okay, you know, what are the missing links that are causing these problems and what do we need to develop to address them? And it's so funny about our upcoming releases is that, we have a tool and that seems to be what everyone's focused on, but really what the tool is, is that link to create that right relationship from the way we create to the way that we coordinate and, you know interject quality and connecting that to the way that we manage projects.
Hugh Seaton: [00:03:42] And, so one of the things you talked about, throughout, this is this idea of different tools. So you were talking about going to Navis works for this and going to Revit for that. Is some of what you're doing, then pulling this together as, as a, you know, a slimmer tool chain, for lack of a better word.
Brett Settles: [00:04:02] Yeah. That's it exactly correct. There was kind of a macro and a micro focus that we have moving forward. And one is obviously to provide an environment where people can complete the coordination process and that's where some of the tools come into play. But there's also the want to reduce that choke point that we were talking about earlier.
And the way that we figure we can do that is through a unique set of permissions and rights that give people the ability to upload their own information at will. And allowed the GCs to focus on delegating the issues and talking about the actual problems at hand and not worrying about and paying good money for someone to, you know, pick and click through models.
So a lot of automation, a lot of focus on the way that we actually submit the models to this environment as well.
Hugh Seaton: [00:04:53] Well, let's break some of those pieces off, like talk to me about when you say automation, what are you, what are you automating?
Brett Settles: [00:05:00] Yeah, that's a really good question. And this really focuses more on the tool part of this is that I've run coordination in a very well-known construction pro product for very long time now. And I felt like a lot of my time was spent doing picks and clicks of things that I really knew the variables of my head, but I was still kind of forced to go through the physical motion.
Hugh Seaton: [00:05:22] When you say picks and clicks, what do you mean.
Brett Settles: [00:05:24] Yeah. So for example, when you would receive models and say a software like Navis works. On the design side, if you're really good at what you were doing, you would know what you were getting because you had a set of standards that you're modeling by, but oftentimes on the construction side, you don't really know what you're receiving.
So one of the first things that you have to do is really sit down and figure out, okay, what is my object data? What is, what, how do I categorize it in a way that's going to make sense to actually run coordination. And that has its own series of picks and clicks, and we really kind of focused in on what doesn't make logical sense there?
And how, what have we always wanted to be able to do such as the ability to simply create a search set via the property of an instance. Now, I know I'm probably talking to a lot of you know, people that aren't ingrained in this technology, but what I mean by that as is. What if I want to find all the air handlers of a certain type, what if I want to find all the specifications of a certain type of pipe or a certain type of joint or weld?
This is really what we do in VDC is we categorize all of those different scopes and compare them. And that's really what clash detection is. But after you actually define what the objects are, you also have to run through a series of seeing what cylinders hit, what rectangles. And then you have to run through an exercise of grouping those together and something that makes sense for engineers, fabricators and contractors.
And as, as of right now, that's all manual. But what we've noticed over the years is there's a lot of criteria that we can set with third-party tools and everything else that can really kind of automate that for us. And I really feel like a lot of GCs will get a lot of benefit by having these very skilled highly technical people focusing on something other than what really amounts to desk labor.
Hugh Seaton: [00:07:22] That's interesting. So what I'm hearing you say is over time, you've realized that there's certain things that, that just happen over and over and over again, and you've made it so that you can do a lot of them all at once. Is that right?
So you set like one parameter or you set one activity and you say, all right, everything that looks like this, make it blue. I doubt, that's what you really do. Blue being a nice color and all, but is that the, of, is that what you mean? Is that you'll, you'll say there's a, you know, a grouping or a class or a family is not the right word.
And I want all of them to do this and I can, and as in, so doing, you can automate something. Is that, is that the kind of thing you're talking about?
Brett Settles: [00:08:01] Yeah, that's exactly correct. And a lot of it comes down to something that we've all struggled with over the years, but, how predictable is your data and if it's not predictable, how quickly can you condition it?
Hugh Seaton: [00:08:13] And when you say condition it, what do you mean?
Brett Settles: [00:08:15] I mean, just there's a, there's an exercise I used to do that I kind of referred to as model dissection. Right. And that is a situation where I'm working with the new subcontractor or a specialty contractor. You know, maybe we didn't plan things out as good as we could have on the technology side.
And now I'm forced with understanding the data behind their model, although I didn't create it.
Hugh Seaton: [00:08:40] So when you say conditioning, you're kind of translating it into one standard. Is that right?
Brett Settles: [00:08:46] Yeah, you're really just trying to get to the point where you can understand it and divided up into the segments of data that you're going to use in the project.
Yeah, that's huge. I mean, for, for all sorts of data is a bigger point here, which is why I'm kind of dwell for a minute, but you know, all sorts of data that you find that it's, I, I be honest with you. I'd never thought of it in that, those terms with BIM, but it's very, very common that when you're getting data from reality, that it's a mess, that there's people put zeros in the wrong places, or they use the wrong formats or the wrong syntax or whatever.
So it's interesting that, that, you know, what, you're, what you're describing. And I think we're going to go somewhere from here is that one of the big things that you, that you're doing in Revizto, is taking data that could come from different places that have made different choices about how they format or whatever, and you're kind of harmonizing it so you can do something with it. Is that right?
Yeah. You know, on the design side of the world, we see it as a situation where if you understand your own BIM standards, you can really automate a lot of the things that we're coming out with.
And if you're on the construction side, what we're really going to be asking people to do is, is try to understand your subcontractors and your design partners a little bit better ask them for a copy of their BIM standards. And the reason why I would say that is, is because if you understand what's coming from them as a, as a builder, you may not be able to create a company-wide template, but you sure can create templates that accept data from each one of your industry partners.
Hugh Seaton: [00:10:19] That's really interesting. And in your experience, how far apart can BIM standards be from one? I mean, let's say within one specialty, I could absolutely believe that an electrician and a mechanical contractor might be really different because they're doing different things. But do you find like within a trade, so all else being equal, that BIM standards are all over the map or are they more or less the same with some different choices about formatting and syntax?
Brett Settles: [00:10:48] You know, I would say the closest to that that this is a question. People might not be happy with me either, but I would say that architects are the closest to having sort of an industry wide understanding, but they're not even there yet.
Hugh Seaton: [00:11:05] Yeah. And do you think it's because they've been doing it a little bit longer, that Revit kind of started as a design tool. So they've been thinking like this and maybe, you know, making expensive mistakes for longer.
Brett Settles: [00:11:16] That's absolutely true. Absolutely true. I mean, when I see a really good set of defined BIM standards and BIM execution plans, not only around the way that we create drawings, but create data, model things to different types of families, you can, and can't use the people that cut off the ability to build masses in place.
I mean, that creates a lot of value for them down the chain. And they've been doing it since let's say 2005 in terms of Revit. So yes, they have a lot more experience with it. They've been burned by it a lot more in many situations. But even in their situation, it's never like an industry, the standard, it's always a company standard at best or more commonly an office standard.
So even inside of some of these big companies, they may produce really good work, but San Francisco may do things a lot differently than New York.
Hugh Seaton: [00:12:15] That's interesting. And, and again, those differences are, are like incomprehensible or they're just work to get them into, into line.
Brett Settles: [00:12:24] They're just work. They're definitely not irreconcilable or you know, nobody can understand them. It's literally coming down to throwing the overhead at it, the proper training at it to get everything in place, which is difficult in these times.
Hugh Seaton: [00:12:40] That makes sense. So back to back to what we were talking about, so I stopped you to kind of help define some of these terms. So you were talking about conditioning data in the process of the whole workflow, talk to me a little bit more about how you've pulled together, pieces of the process into one roof or one software in this case.
Brett Settles: [00:13:01] Yeah, it's one of those things where once again, I'll use the word macro, but we took a look at where's the gaping hole in the process.
And not that to say that that hole isn't filled by a multitude of third-party tools, but it was more about streamlining that. So what we said is, okay, where does authoring end? And where does the use of what has been created begin? Now that's a difficult question because you're always going from one environment back to the other, but how do we get it to where people that don't understand Revit can be involved in the BIM and VDC process regardless of what industry that they come from.
So that was kind of our goal when I came on. And then, and then it became, well, that part of, of your product works really well. Anybody that has a good model manager workflow right now loves our product for the coordination and communication side of things. And then when we started to, and just like every software company does, you know, some people weren't willing to tolerate, you know, some of the model management practices that had to go into making our software work.
And so while we hate to, you know, not be able to convince people, it really, really showed us where the, the problems are. And that is just no matter what suite of tools you decide to use in the space. The ability to quickly move the data through it is really what's most important. And that's where we felt we needed to address that within our own platform.
Hugh Seaton: [00:14:36] That makes sense. And so, and when you say address it in your platform, what, what have you guys done? How have you made that data flow easier?
Brett Settles: [00:14:44] Yeah, really what we focused on was the usability. Anybody that's worked in these tools and there are many of these coordination tools, Navis works and Solibri being the two bigger ones.
These are extremely powerful, very dependable tools. There's no disputing that. That's why they've been around for so long. However, they're just one piece of that puzzle and sometimes a pretty small piece, right? Where communication, I mean, you can be the best clash detection person in the world, but if you can't communicate it properly, it doesn't matter.
Right. So that's really what we decided to, to go after here was all right, when people create things and then people want to review those things in any sort of capacity, what is the most logical way for us to do that? And oftentimes when that information comes into an environment, what is created in that environment needs to be documented.
And that's what I was talking about more about that PM process. So what we're trying to do is to say once again, things have been created. People need to look at it. People from all aspects of the organization, project management, traditional architects, everyone that needs to benefit from the information on this job needs to be hands on, not just the Revit users.
Hugh Seaton: [00:16:06] So is a lot of what you're saying that you're, you're exposing more of the model and more of the aspects of the model almost outside of the Revit environment, so that, so that anyone can look at it on whatever device they're... well, I'm assuming it's not a wristwatch, but most of the devices, they might be looking on it that they can, they can participate and make comments or review or whatever.
Is that right?
Brett Settles: [00:16:29] Yeah, that's a that's exactly correct. I mean, you know, a very, very short story of my career is that when I got hired at my last company in 2010, I was brought on to take this company from paper to a modern workflow. Right. And I was successful at that. But what I found is, as I became more successful at implementing these softwares senior management especially individuals that hadn't been exposed to this, became more disconnected from the process.
So by implementing new technology, I actually created a pretty significant problem in the company. And that is where I really learned that being able to communicate what you create and uncover with technology is just as important as being able to use it.
Hugh Seaton: [00:17:14] That's a huge point I want to, again, dwell on for a minute. So one of the things we often talk about when it comes to not just BIM and not just VDC is, you know, we assume that it's the field, that's the slow part. We assume that it's the the folks out, you know, whether it's a superintendent or whether foremen or whoever it is, that's resistant or that slower to say yes, or that doesn't have the patience.
But what you're talking about is a really interesting idea, and that is it's possible that different functions can move faster than management's perceived ability to manage risk that they're afraid you're running faster than they can keep up with. And you might do something that creates a risk or, or, you know, does something that they have to worry about later.
Is that what you found?
Brett Settles: [00:18:03] Yeah, we found, we found a lot of different things with that, right? I mean, the idea of people directing, you know, we, we talked with a lot of superintendents, a lot of foreman about our technology and the way that we teach them, the technology is very different from the way that we would teach a technical person.
But one of the things that we always like to do with our field personnel is explain. At a very high level, how the sausage is being made. If, if I can't find a better analogy than that.
Hugh Seaton: [00:18:31] It's alright, at least you're not talking about how laws are made.
Brett Settles: [00:18:34] Yes, exactly. So. Whenever we explain that to them and kind of you know, talk about if they are assuming any other risks, then it really just comes down to being able to use the tools once they know that that part of it, you know, is out and not only use the tools and not worry about that risk aspect of it.
But also, you know, be able to gather information that they were never able to gather before. You know, one of the things that really ties into this. So we don't talk a lot about anymore is our ability to incorporate reality capture out into the field. And, and that's been huge as well, right? I mean, point clouds are very well known for being data that we collect, but data that we don't use on a mass scale.
And we're really trying to attack this from every avenue that we can, and create an environment where everyone from the senior VDC director up to the C suite and down to, you know , the carpenters on the job can use the data in a way that's valuable for them.
Hugh Seaton: [00:19:35] That's really interesting. And I want to just stick with that point before a little bit. When, when you were in the last role and it really relates to what Revizto is able to provide, is this idea that you've given access to senior people so they can check in on, on what's going on in a way that was harder for them to do before.
Is that, is that what you were kind of getting at is that you, you know, in a past role, you had moved so far ahead that they were a little bit nervous that they were uncomfortable, that they couldn't check in. And one of the things that Revizto , because you've said earlier that your, your people are able to access the model somehow without being , in presumably, without being in Revit.
Is that, is that kinda where you're going.
Brett Settles: [00:20:19] Yeah, exactly. I mean, one of the things that really turned my old boss off about this was that, you know, one day I showed him the tools that we were using. I gave him access and then, you know, he accidentally messed something up and he was very hesitant to put his hands on it after that, but it was information that he really needed to understand the job at the level he needed to understand it. And that was, you know, a really big bridge. That is frankly, the reason why I came to Revizto in the first place, because I saw a tool that really filled a void that I hadn't seen filled before. And, you know, once we put that in place, he was able to comment, you know, visually inspect what was being designed in the engineering process before we went out to construction, it made him feel a lot better, not only about his own self-esteem and the ability to use technology, but also you know, confidence in reducing that worry that you brought up in the first place. You know, people get worried when they don't know what's going on, right.
It could be going perfect. But if they don't know what's going on, that's still a cause to worry. And this really opened the doors for them to understand, you know, what we were doing, even as we pushed the limits on the type of data that we were using.
Hugh Seaton: [00:21:37] And you're doing this by limiting what they're able to, to manipulate or touch. I mean, I'm assuming they're like either they're role-based or the person that you're giving it to, I'm assuming you control what they can like effect, is that right?
Brett Settles: [00:21:52] Oh, absolutely. We have a very granular set of permissions that allow people to do or not do certain things. And we will only have more permissions once our new technology comes out and that is all really based around, you know, what type of person are you and what do you need to do? Right. We're developing a system that really allows a lot of people to do a lot of different things. So when we tackle it, it's never, Hey, here's all of Revizto it's oh, you're, you're a foreman. You're a superintendent. You're a carpenter. You're a sheet metal worker. This is what you need to know.
Hugh Seaton: [00:22:31] So coming back around to where we were a little bit earlier in the podcast where you talked about bottlenecks, what , I'm hearing you now really explore and flesh out for me is you've opened up bottlenecks because it doesn't have to be opened by one person and the senior, person's looking over their shoulder and it now it's, they have access to... everybody has access to it and you can control what level of, you know, they're able to manipulate or, or, or impact the model. But because you've done that, you've now opened it up, that people can contribute the way they're supposed to contribute either at the same time, or certainly they don't have to all go through the VDC person who was going to open the model and say, well, here's what we mean and so on and so forth, is that where you're going with this?
Brett Settles: [00:23:15] Yeah, absolutely. I like to call that, that exercise shoulder tapping. Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. A VDC person may have eight hours worth of work on their plate. Yeah. And even though they have eight hours worth of work, you know, five shoulder tap sucks three and a half hours out of their day.
Hugh Seaton: [00:23:31] Yeah.
Brett Settles: [00:23:31] And, and here we are right with the field waiting on valuable information. And, you know, maybe in the office, it was perceived that what they were being tapped for was more important. And really the reason they didn't get the information out was because of all the button clicking that we talked about earlier in the podcast.
So, you know, it's not only that, but I also like to think of it, you know, I use analogies a lot and if you go back to the way, let's say the way that databases were were handled. I don't know, in the fifties and sixties. Right. Is that I would imagine that with that technology being so advanced back then there, you know, everything was done analog on the outside, you know, with the banks or the financial corporations or whatever.
And it was all eventually entered into a database by a specialist. Right. And then if someone wanted to retrieve information from that database, they would have to go ask that specialist to get that information for them. And you can imagine how inefficient it made that process. But now, you know, 60 years later from that time period, we all have instant access to these databases through the means of different user interfaces and stuff like that.
It's not that the data is any different, right? It's still numbers and columns. So the same thing, but it's been translated to all of us, you know, out here in a way that we can understand. And while we may not do that perfectly out of the gate, that's definitely sort of the ideology that we're following.
Hugh Seaton: [00:25:02] Very interesting. And, and it, it feels like, you know, what you're doing is opening up the VDC process to, you know, making it less of... obviously the people doing the coordination are specialists, but it integrates the process and integrates the tool set and integrates the work product much more openly into decision-making and other workflows.
How have you seen that have, have kind of have an impact.
Brett Settles: [00:25:30] Yeah, it's funny how it impacts things. And it kind of goes into what I tell new hires, which is you're selling an idea first and then you're selling a product that supports that idea. And, and the reason that I say that is because with our product, some people are like, that's a lot of transparency.
Hugh Seaton: [00:25:51] Yeah, yeah. I get it.
Brett Settles: [00:25:52] You know, sort of in a sort of in a negative way.
Hugh Seaton: [00:25:55] Right, right. I get it. Yeah.
Brett Settles: [00:25:57] And so where we seen our, you know, our product when it's deployed correctly you know, one of the big projects that we've been working on and we have, you know, we just finished an NFL stadium.
Not too long ago, that opened to the public and, and it was, you know, under budget ahead of schedule. And that's not to say that our product was the reason why that happened. It, it's more about the people and the, you know, the hardworking people in those companies that actually produce that building.
But, you know, I think that that's a testament to those people had to communicate. There's obviously an effective form of communication going on there. And our tool was part of it. Now, the big thing about that project was, is that it had a very tech savvy owner and a design build approach, which the owner forces transparency and the design build approach requires it.
Hugh Seaton: [00:26:51] Right. Right. Do you, well, if I may, do you find that that some project delivery methods , I'm sure you're going to tell me all of them can, can benefit from Revizto, but do you find some really kind of shine and absolutely take full advantage, whereas others it's adding value for sure. But it's not really getting the most out of it.
Brett Settles: [00:27:16] Yeah. I mean, I think it's funny because if you looked at the four main delivery methods, we often refer to. We get the most value at the most current one and the least value at the oldest one. So, you know, when you talk about integrated project delivery, a lot of the ways, you know, that we used to talk about IPD, our software does just naturally, right.
I remember when IPD was first brought up in 2007, they were doing a hospital. And everyone was in trailers. Right. And a lot of the reason that they were in trailers together was so that they could spend their chair around and look at each other and ask a question. Really kind of enables that even in addition, design build scenario where everyone's at their own offices, because everyone has that real transparent communication, I would say design build is, is very common among our clients and a great way for design partners communicate with the GC and communicate with the fabricators and installers as they build and design the building simultaneously.
Another big one that we see a lot of value in is what, what people are referring to at least in my region of the world as design assist. And that is where the contractor has a scope of work in the design process, but it's not a true design build.
Once again, opens up the communication. When we get to design bid build. That's where the value of our product. It's still very valuable, but it's really only valuable to the internal portions of the companies that complete the design and the build process. So there's, there's still a lot of problems with that, in my opinion, we can still add value there, but it's really about, okay. Okay. Design company or a firm. How do you get value internally before you hand it off? Right.
Hugh Seaton: [00:29:04] This is amazing. Now I want to finish with a quick question about what you said was coming. You guys are looking at a release. Are you you're you're able to talk about that right now, right?
Brett Settles: [00:29:14] Yeah. In some capacities
Hugh Seaton: [00:29:16] we'll tease it. How's that?
Brett Settles: [00:29:18] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, as I said earlier in the podcast, what we hope to do is, you know, really create these final links in this process as the year goes on. So. You, you know, we're really looking to push what we're referring to as you know, a new version of Revizto out in the fall and beta that is going to not only include our, you know, clash detection, but it's also going to include my team going out and trying to educate people during the beta.
About, you know, clash detections great. You know, we have a lot of stuff that we built into that, but really we see the overall value in some of these new ideas about the way people submit their information into the coordination environment. And that's really where we're heading with Revizto. Right. I it's, it's hard to talk about some of the things because they're up in the air.
Yeah. It's really just, it's about. If I could draw it out for you. Right. I see a huge you know, kind of three, three buckets of information in our industry. There's like I said, the way that we create things, the way that we manage the official processes of the project, whether you'd be an architect or a constructor, and then everything that happens in between those two things.
It's really subjective, right? It's really subjective. It's hard to standardize is very unpredictable. And that's the big thing that we're shooting for this year is to really solidify our spot in that space and provide a solution that allows people to kind of really standardize the way that they communicate QA clash detect, run live meetings for 3d models.
And it's really just all about bringing those parties together in a way that that helps everyone.
Hugh Seaton: [00:31:11] This is really exciting. I love what you guys are doing. Hey Brett thanks for being on the podcast.
Brett Settles: [00:31:17] Thank you very much hugh all come back anytime you want. I've had a great time in this conversation, it's been really fun.
Hugh Seaton: [00:31:23] Thank you.