Benny Baltrotsky has been in leadership roles across the construction technology ecosystem, from the Construction Progress Coalition to eSub, and now MSUITE. We discuss the evolution of MSUITE and its role in the continued development of offsite and prefabrication processes. MSUITE provides a fantastic case study for construction technology companies, as it has found a balance of customer-led and internally generated innovation, and between configurability and "out of the box" settings that make it easy for early users.
Hugh Seaton: [00:00:00] Welcome to constructed futures. I'm Hugh Seaton. Today I'm here with Benny Baltrotsky, COO with M- suite and board member of the construction progress coalition, Benny, welcome to the podcast
Benny Baltrotsky: [00:00:13] Hugh. Thanks so much for having me on today. I really do enjoy the podcast and listen to them since you guys got to start it this year.
Hugh Seaton: [00:00:20] Thank you. Let's start with M suite, so you have a really cool origin story. And I'd love to hear about it.
Benny Baltrotsky: [00:00:27] Yeah. So our founder and CEO, Britton Langdon was working at a large mechanical contractor in the Midwest. And while he was there, they were looking to expand, or I should say mid-sized, they were looking to expand their fabrication services.
So they had a, a smaller shop at the time, and they were looking to see how they could bring on more work as not just a mechanical contractor, but as a fabricator. And they were able to sort of start getting work from some of the industrial contractors and or industrial facilities in the area and what had happened, they were looking for a way to track the work that they were doing in the shop, to understand if they are being productive or not. And if they were making money on it. And so Britton and the president of the company went out looking for something on the market to fill this gap. And what they realized when they started to look out there there wasn't anything that was on the market that really fit a mechanical contractor, or that was built for them to not just feed information to the shop, but to really track the productivity within the shop. And so they said, Hey, let's, let's go build it. And I love that one. The entrepreneur is the living the problem, because it's much better than sort of somebody off in a distant area being like, Oh, I think someone might have this problem, like right here, him living this problem. So what they actually did is they developed a software, FabPro at the time. And they are at the MCAA, one of the technology conferences and he gave a talk on it, of what they did.
And afterwards, a lot of people started coming up and being like, Hey, can we use that? Well, that sounds really cool. We have the same problem. And this was about 2015, 2016 when this was happening. And so this was really at its infancy. So, what they were able to do is they were able to, using this tool, the mechanical contractor, Modern Company was able to, in essence, triple their business over five years, get a ISO 9,000 certified.
They really just sort of nailed in that manufacturing process and what had happened at that time, as they sort of said, Hey, let's, let's look to spin this off into its own entity. And I think the most important thing during this story is they failed immediately when they first came out. Right. Because what happens with a lot of companies is you build it with one company in mind, which was giving the mechanical contractor. And I hate to say it, but we all are short of snowflake ish. And so one of the things that was really cool is that the, the founders and the presidents and the management of the parent company at the time was very supportive, the investors, very supportive, say, Hey, get the product, right. Don't worry about selling the product. Let's make sure we get it right, to fit more more people not just one shop. And so over those next three years, they continued to iterate on the product. I mean, we're still obviously iterating on it today, but without the pressure of commercialization, if that makes any sense.
So is it a great. Sort of beginning to where it came from. And now with the customer base that we have, we have over 125 customers and getting the feedback and growth within. It's been really amazing to sort of see how it evolves. And when you start getting to more critical mass, of work or people, the, the suggestions or the feedbacks start running in parallel very quickly.
So you get a good understanding of a one-off idea versus sort of a larger problem within the industry.
Hugh Seaton: [00:04:08] There's a lot in there and I want to get into fabrication and that whole thing later, but as a, as a company and as somebody who's, you know, talking about building a viable offering in construction, some really cool things you just came across.
One of them is the danger of being captive, of building something that is, that has, you know, based on pretty narrow requirements. I mean, you had to start there and you had to start somewhere, but that's really interesting that you found or that the team at the time found that, that it didn't, it failed in the marketplace.
And how did it fail? I mean, as far as...
Benny Baltrotsky: [00:04:43] " Failed is probably a little strong word, but it was the,
Hugh Seaton: [00:04:45] it didn't take off.
Benny Baltrotsky: [00:04:46] And now I'm seeing that manner, but no, let's go ahead and we want to run the process this way. We want to run the process that way. So we've built one of the most configurable, flexible enterprise tools out there.
So we literally ...you can drag and drop your workflows and can have conditional formatting or to really tell how it's supposed to flow through your shop, shop managers all the way through the field. Like, what is that specific type of material and cut or groove that were extracted from the model? Like what is it supposed to do?
So we've made it super flexible. And I think that's what we really That's what I mean, when I say sort of fails that you went in and you're like, Oh, you, if you didn't do it this one way, then. Well, maybe we won't work for you. So now really we can, we can fit any fabrication process. And that's another interesting thing as we continue to evolve, we're just releasing our next generation.
And what we're finding is that it really doesn't matter what you're fabricating, right? So we're really, obviously we have a lot of mechanical or working on the electrical side, but what we're finding now is that these pipe fabricators or EPCs or GCs are coming to us because it really doesn't matter what you fabricate, right? What we're finding is, "Oh, do you need to extract information and you need to put it through a workflow and know how quickly and get work instruction to be able to track when this has been delivered and installed?" Okay, cool. Great. Well, we can, we can help you with that. So I think, I think it's a really good point for any entrepreneur where it's just like, you're normally never going to get it right on the first time and sort of figuring out those iterations on there.
Hugh Seaton: [00:06:25] That's right, but it sounds to me like, like where you, where you iterated towards is, is this idea of configurability, which you see coming up in construction software, in different areas as well. Is that just as an industry, people all to have their own way of doing it, or they have their own, processes or constraints.
How did you, how do you figure out what should be configurable and what shouldn't, that's a pretty. Tough question. So...
Benny Baltrotsky: [00:06:51] we have some really smart people on the team, luckily, and I think going through and iterating with as multiple contractors and understanding what people need or don't need, but building it in a flexible framework where you can still extract information because when you look at the type of growth, so that look Modern had gone through, they went from a 7,000 square foot, five fab shop, 14 to a 69,000 square foot fab shop.
Right. And like that's ahuge amount of lift, and so, them living through the problems too. I think also helped to better understand, well, what that might look like. Right.
Hugh Seaton: [00:07:30] And, and is it, is it because of the software that they were able to triple it? You know, their, their business?
Benny Baltrotsky: [00:07:37] I think it's, it's, it's both sides, right?
They said, Hey, we see fabrication as a way for us to expand our business and create a repeatable process there, but for us to be able to do it and do it efficiently, we need to be able to manage it properly. And also if we wanted to get certifications like ISO 9001, things like that, that they would be able to
Hugh Seaton: [00:08:02] Got it. Just to close off on the configurable thing, cause I think there's just some real meat in there and it feels like one of the things that makes a, a viable product offering in the construction technology space is you kind of need to be configurable. Because again, you see it everywhere is that that most successful products have either started or at least gotten to a place where they're responsive to the differences that their potential customers need.
Benny Baltrotsky: [00:08:30] And yeah, I agree, but it's almost to a... to some point. So, they need... to be on the enterprise level, you need to be able to peel back the onion and set it up in the way that you want. But on the flip side of it, we need to be able to bring in a new contractor that doesn't know much about fabrication today.
Cause right, this is a new that they're getting into and we have this a lot and the out of the box workflows are what most people need. But a lot of times our clients are some of the largest fabricators. Or, they are some of the largest fabricators in the country. So these people are obviously much further along though when we're starting off with people just getting into this process from a thousand to a few thousand are saying, Hey, I'm going to build my first fabrication shop, I know I need to do more offsite. It needs to be simple enough for them to use out of the box workflows that are configured for them. And so that's what, that's always a struggle with it because if, if you're too configurable, and it just sort of, there's no out of the box then it's not going to meet a lot of the demands of the majority of the market.
Though, if you just built for the lower end, and you're just saying, "Hey, you get A, B or C," these are your three. You can do pipe and copper or whatever your different flows are. If it was just that, then it would be, I think too, limiting.
Hugh Seaton: [00:09:46] So it's kind of a blend of, of really strong configurability, but you give it, I love this term, "out of the box workflows." Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. Yeah. So the learning curve for someone who isn't that sophisticated yet, or is getting, getting into it, isn't going to be prohibitive. They don't have to stop everything and spend a week learning.
Benny Baltrotsky: [00:10:06] Definitely. And, and I just think it's sort of interesting. We see this evolution that's happening today.
And so I've joined M suite. Oh, gosh, I bet maybe nine months ago it feels like it's been much longer, but I'd been following this space for the last five plus years. And what I noticed is that there was more and more movement to this idea of, obviously offsite construction, but really trying to find a, there's a lot of sort of buzz words out there and sort of like, I don't know, ideas of processes, but really when you start to peel back the onion on some of those products or things that out there, I didn't see anyone really connecting them. And so when, when looking at M suite their mission was connecting BIM, fab, and field. And it's, it's really interesting when you, when you look at it because there's, I don't know, there's a lot of profit to be made to being able to bring things that just bring things off site, but to understand where you are better at building some things, or worse at building some right.
There's sort of, or this nature of productization or DFMA like, how do I get, why would I want to do that? Well, if I can become more repeatable, I can get better. So as I started to sort of follow the different companies in the space and start to look though what they were doing, I was just blown away at the technology that M-Suite had built to help this industry.
And then, when looking at the sort of overall trends of like, well, how are people making. Some companies are making more money than others on these things. And a lot of those things started pointing to offsite, construction or fabrication. And then the other thing too, looking at the, I talked to a handful of companies that went from, "Hey, we went from 25 to a hundred million in the last five years." And a lot of the companies I was talking to had a lot of similarities in there too. "Hey, we've, we've started this offsite fabrication." A lot of times they've had right.. The mechanical industry has had this for years.
They were sort of just doing it that maybe it wasn't the pure, I guess it still is offsite, but they're calling prefab and maybe it's not as technical. But what we're finding is that these, these companies are just evolving much quicker at it and able to become more efficient and make more money. And I think that's and deliver better products.
Hugh Seaton: [00:12:36] And do you think that, that as the, you know, you said something earlier that, that, you know, what part of the process are we good at our, you know, do youfind that M suite changes, or products like M suite, kind of change what a company is going to be good at, or as capable of doing, you know what I mean?
Like it, it sorta changes because it lowers some bar, some barriers and facilitates some other things. Are you finding that people are, are it's evolving the company?
Benny Baltrotsky: [00:13:05] Yeah. It's really interesting. Especially the ones who are they're coming in saying, Hey, we're building this fabrication shop or we have it because these people have been doing it for years, right.
Or sometimes not. And they've never really had the transparency or the ability to scale. I think the crazy thing that we see is there's always this perceived adversity to technology in the shop. It's the same as a field. Right? Oh our people are never going to do this. Oh, they don't, they're never going to look at an iPad.
And it's just interesting because when we start going in, we were with a large fabricator on the West coast and they gave him the iPads for two weeks just to sort of pilot it. And they went to say, Hey boss, okay, we're going to take them back now. Or the boss went to go take them back. And they said, no, well, we're not going back to the stone ages.
Like I want to look at my work instructions, I want to get this information. Like why, why would I go back? And it's sort of interesting. So what's happening is a lot of times I think companies are saying, Oh, we can't do that. And then when they do, they're like, wow, this is more information than I've ever been able to gather as well making it easier for the guys actually on the shop floor.
Hugh Seaton: [00:14:20] That's a really interesting one, this sense that some people sometimes have on the behalf of others that they'd never want to do this. And then, you know, they realized, well, actually, this isn't so hard and it's helping me and it's made my life easier. And you know, generally things are better. You know, that's, that's the story of technology adoption every day. Isn't it?
Benny Baltrotsky: [00:14:39] Yeah. And it's just amazing. Cause like one of the first things I did when I started it went on for the clients that I could go onsite and started talking to people and asking them, and I heard that same story sort of over and over again.
Everyone had like one person in their shop that said, I'm never going to use this and I'm going to break it. And we're like, okay. And that person has always then become a champion of ours, which is sort of funny it's or it's just seeing that similarity because every shop had someone and then you come back and you're like, Oh no, we love it.
It's great. Let's it's been pretty, pretty amazing.
Hugh Seaton: [00:15:12] That's yeah, it's a funny one. You know, you, you going back to some things you said earlier, I mean, would you characterize some of the transitions you're seeing that people have been doing things site because it was convenient or it was just the smart thing to do? Cause there wasn't space on the job site, it was more about kind of convenience and getting things done to now turning into more of a strategy. That it's become something we do, not just something we, you know, we did as part of that job. Is that, was that something that you're seeing in the market?
Benny Baltrotsky: [00:15:43] Yeah, I think they're realizing it can become a profit center right? Before, not that it wasn't before, but really realizing how okay. People are saying, what percentage am I going to do offsite this year? They're setting goals in their organization to say, Hey, I wanna, I wanna get 30%. What else can we fabricate? This is what they're realizing that the repeatability of it.
Hugh Seaton: [00:16:01] Right.
Benny Baltrotsky: [00:16:01] And being able to have... not have to worry about these conditions offsite or just immensely powerful. And I think just as the industry slowly but surely adopts BIM and adopts total stations and sort of moving to this, the benefits become larger and larger.
Hugh Seaton: [00:16:22] One of the things you see in manufacturing is that as things get more and more sophisticated and more and more kind of down the line, when companies start to specialize and competitors start to trade with each other, and you know, an easy example from my life is Sony used to sell a ton of things that were manufactured by Panasonic, because they were better at some of them and vice versa.
And you see that with cars. Sometimes you see that with again, across the product world. Do you, do you see that happening in construction where one, one group is going to be really good at fabricating? You know, some subset and another group will be good. If so, cause your point about re repeatability means there has to be quantity and any given company often has trouble reaching the quantity that a manufacturing line might require.
Benny Baltrotsky: [00:17:08] I think only time will tell because we're seeing two things happen. One is the individual trades are becoming better and more efficient. We're also then seeing others like EPCs or other larger mechanical contractors doing multiple, multiple trades within their own production line. Right. And so I think it's still too early to tell if just pure specialization in some of the things historically we've had that like sheet metal.
But what if I can put my piping, my sheet metal all under one roof. And you mean more productized it like, would that make me more efficient? So I think it's still too early to tell. Yeah, there are some things that are still components, but we are seeing people use our software to do multiple trades and sort of then advanced work package for those multiple trades within a single instance. So again, this is one that we're, I think we're just too early on to see which way we'll go. Cause there's, there's really benefits on both sides.
Hugh Seaton: [00:18:10] And it's interesting that, you know, the size of the industry is such that you may find all of the above. We may find that there are pockets or parts of the country where there's an ecosystem of people trading, sub assemblies, and another part where they don't.
The idea of sub assemblies to me is interesting too, like from, from, from car manufacturing, where things that weren't standard becomes standard so that you can make more of them and make it more efficient.
Benny Baltrotsky: [00:18:33] And I think that's leading to this idea of productization, which we're really heavily sort of supporting, because if, if you can productize something, even within your own company, it makes it much more repeatable, you know? So one of the things that we're we do, as soon as you upload the model or upload your data into our fabrication software, we're estimating in real time, what it actually takes you to do that based upon historical data. And what we're finding is okay, if it's something that's more repeatable, that's going to make typically make your life easier.
And then what we're finding is okay, if you can productize it, then these are things that then could be added into other components. But a lot of the stuff that we're still doing today is just the nature of commercial or industrial construction where it's very one-off right. The buildings aren't, we're not always doing the same, but there definitely are pieces that you're able to productize.
And I think continue more and more. We'll see.
Hugh Seaton: [00:19:29] And as you think about productizing and what, what the software does, I mean, the assumption would be if a company decides that they want to, you know, really formalize how they make something. So they, they they'll hold inventory and do all the things you do with the product.
Is it easy for them to then kind of put that into design software, to like make it as part of a family or however you'd want to include it in design software?
Benny Baltrotsky: [00:19:53] Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's available to some extent today. To... because you can create your own component and, your own content on there. So yeah, it definitely is.
I think it's just more, more or less the, the people at the level that we're at, don't always have that design input for the larger pieces in really being able to sort of dictate what's used.
Hugh Seaton: [00:20:19] Yeah, I can see that the connection from one end to the other. Let's ask a a broader question how are you seeing the fabrication changing? Let's focus on maybe focus on mechanical, but, you know, go as broad as you want, but how are you seeing it change things, you know, kind of at the broadest level.
Benny Baltrotsky: [00:20:37] So one of the things that we were just talking about, I think is interesting. We're seeing some of our shops, Limbach is one of the companies that uses M suite and they had a hospital that they were building in Michigan and they wanted, they had a very tight schedule from the GC, right.
What they were doing. They were actually doing multiple trade assemblies, but they rented a building right next to the hospital to create a fabrication shop and spun up our software to do these multi trade assemblies. So in essence, making the fabrication shop right next to the hospital, because this was the way that they could do it.
And it was really interesting to see because one going through it, they were able to deliver it... the project from there two months early on there. And that's really what they're optimizing for on the cost savings. After everything is done to spin up the shop, there wasn't much actually cost savings in the sense of their process than how they normally do it at their shop.
But then what they found though, is the ability to to deliver it early, though. It was sort of interesting to see them actually doing the multi trade assemblies because I mean, being able to have conduit, piping, plumbing, sheet metal, cable trays, drywall into the sort of this one, one piece and then install.
And so that's some of the things that we're starting to see some trends on, but I think it's, we're finding groups wanting to get to that next level. So what we're finding is machine integration is huge. So like, how do I get the information from my design, to the shop floor. How do I know how I'm doing.
So that's the thing. I think a lot of people started like, okay, great. We print up some drawings. We can send them, we have some notion of productivity or, Hey, it's better. It's a call center, but we're not really optimizing around it. So what we're now seeing people doing more of is how can we control the machines that we have?
So if we have a tiger stops or Razor gauges or different Watts machines, different sort of cutting and saws and different machines that we can control. How do we control all? Cause that's one of the things that we do and we're seeing a lot more people now say, Hey, I want, I want this to control the machine.
Right? Because we load that information from the model, right. That information then comes in and it can just automate these machines. It's definitely super helpful. The other thing too is just that next level of detail that people are looking for from their fabrication shops.
So one just, Hey, I think on the early side, Hey, let's just make it paperless. Let's know where the status is, but very quickly after people start to get that basic information, they're just saying, okay, now let me get a much better understanding. Let me, let me get a better understanding of our data, right? Like where are we really productive? Where are we not?
We sort of had this idea that, well, this is is what it costs us. This is what we do, but they're getting the reality. And I think the we're still at the infancy of a lot of this stuff. So the amount of data that we're collecting is very interesting because we have hookups to power BI or PSI sense or other types of sort of like BI type tools.
If you want to go even deeper than what we're finding, some people do just like really starting to leverage the data that they're collecting and that sort of stuff that I think that has really become more like manufacturing.
Hugh Seaton: [00:23:55] That's interesting. Are they hiring people? This is a bit of an aside, but are they hiring people to deal with the data or are they just kind of knuckling down and figuring it out?
So, are you seeing data scientists? Are you seeing...,
Benny Baltrotsky: [00:24:07] We're starting to see some, we have obviously some out of the box stuff that we do. We have some data scientists or people that we work with that so that they can help our clients. We're starting to see some of it, but we're starting to see the people ask the questions, if that makes sense.
Hugh Seaton: [00:24:22] That's great.
Benny Baltrotsky: [00:24:23] So they're not at the point where it's like, Hey, we want to invest in a data scientist to go, but sort of asking the question, can we look at it this way? Right. Yes, you can here. Let, let me show you how
That's really cool. I mean,
Hugh Seaton: [00:24:37] you're hearing, this is kind of the year of data. It's just, it's not all about tipping points, but it's certainly you know, on everybody's lips and, and being able to look at what's going on with that level of granularity is pretty awesome.
Benny, I want to go back though, to something you talked about a minute ago. I mean, it just thinking for a minute, essentially, that contractor that built the hospital created like a M.A.S.H. Unit for their offsite, it's really interesting that they were as flexible and good at it enough that they could, you know, take over a space, build something and then leave.
Do you see that sort of thing a lot, or did you use that example cause it's, it's awesome and kind of unusual.
Benny Baltrotsky: [00:25:14] It was a little bit different. We're not seeing, I don't think we're seeing that as much on there. I don't think that's the typical use case though is just sort of interesting to see that they spun up a 25,000 square foot shop for this project.
Hugh Seaton: [00:25:29] Yeah, I think that's why I'm kind of interested in it is it, it just speaks to a comfort level with the process and the risks involved that they chose to do that on a, what must have been a, you know, a pretty big job.
Benny Baltrotsky: [00:25:42] And I think that, I mean, this was a large mechanical or MEP contractor, right.
And I think the working directly with the general contractor on their understanding that the transparency level, I think that's, that's the next thing is sort of like this idea of transparency that we then can give the general contractor or give the MEP contractor, right? The idea that if you know where things are and you know where they're coming through and when they're going to be shipped, it starts giving you a lot more predictability and I think, and comfort with it, right?
Because if not, we're just sort of working off of old WIPs and punchlists which we're still going to have. We're not going to get rid of the WIP or the punchlist anytime soon, but still getting an idea of like, what's really coming. Where's the next one. Okay. And we've already installed one of these. How, how do we install the next 10 of these?
Hugh Seaton: [00:26:36] That makes sense. And yeah, you're always going to want to know what's going on right now, but, but the level of granularity you're talking about, depending on, you know, how much time you have is, is huge. So, where do you see, you know, if you were to, to think about the next couple of years, how do you see things developing.
Benny Baltrotsky: [00:26:52] What I really see happening as more based upon the interest level that we're starting to get we're seeing more and more self performing general contractors, modular builders, as well as the MVP, just sort of investing more in their fabrication and field. So what we always say is through retirement earlier, BIM fab and field, well, how do we have some called field pros.
So being able to take that fabrication that assembly ship at the site and tells it when it's been installed, updating the model in real time, sort of knowing, knowing where we are. So what we're, what we're seeing is just sort of more and more growth within the sort of offsite world. I think the there's a lot of large companies that are not traditional mechanical contractors, right? These GCs that are starting to look into it. We're also working with companies like Hercutech. They're a modular wall builder out of Arizona and they've productized something and right. They're becoming more manufacturing. I think we're going to see a lot more companies like that because what we're finding, it really doesn't matter what you're fabricating or manufacturing in regards to our processes.
So I think we're going to see more people on that. You're going to see more people. With a change in how field is done from this level. And what I mean by that is when you get into these people that are sophisticated enough to model and fabricate, where the field tools are going to allow for people to have real time installation, real-time advanced work packaging.
So one of the things that we do that I always find just so cool is we allow you to package, however you want, but like package different for design, than the shop, than the field. So when you're getting to the field, you can do advanced work packaging to then package it on how you want it installed versus how you might've wanted it fabricated. And I think that's what we're starting to see the transition go to, because it's becoming more of fabricate /install.
Right. And sort of, and just because I designed it one way or fabricated one way doesn't mean that's the way that I want to install it. And so I think as the companies become more sophisticated, they're going to continue to grow into tools like M-Suite or Fab pro and Field pro.
Hugh Seaton: [00:29:10] That is really cool. So we're, we're kind of at the end here, but you wanted to give a quick plug for the CPC. You want to talk a little bit about, about the construction progress coalition.
Benny Baltrotsky: [00:29:19] Yeah, sure. No, just something that's near and dear to my heart. One of the things when I got started into this industry, about 15 years ago, one thing that realized that there was not enough interoperability between different software companies and a lot of it, and also interoperability between the different stakeholders, the GCs, the subcontractors, the owners, and it's something just to take a look at, if you haven't constructionprogress.org.
Really what we're focused on is driving the conversations around interoperability and working together within this industry to solve problems. And it's, especially over the last year, once we've had to go remote some really interesting conversations and case studies that have been put together around these problems and getting some of the really, I gotta say, I think some of the brightest people in the industry together from all perspectives. Not just from industry, but from then software and architects, engineers, really everyone versus just sort of one, one dataset to discuss these problems and, and we're working on putting together solutions to these problems that we run into every day. So we, we say shared pains. And so a lot of these things that we go in, we find out that we, we all have the same shared pains or problems that we're working through.
So if you haven't checked it out constructionprogress.org, and there's typically about a monthly round table that we've been doing that jump on and. Yeah. It's, it's really been the, the closest thing I've had to the conference sitting with five people in the hallway or 10 people hallway having some great conversations in those breakouts.
So something that I know M suite supports and I personally support. So definitely
Hugh Seaton: [00:31:06] I'm a delegate from CSI,
Benny Baltrotsky: [00:31:08] perfect. Yeah. I know. I saw you saw you there yesterday, I think. All right.
Hugh Seaton: [00:31:12] Well then he thank you for the time. This has been a great podcast.
Benny Baltrotsky: [00:31:16] Yeah, thank you so much. I really do enjoy these. So thanks so much.